Can I Give Calcs to Builders without PI?

zakmuh · 18 Oct 2016

Hello All,

Hope you all are well. I'm a newcomer and I find this forum members being very helpful to people who seek for advice on their DIY jobs. Thanks all!, Now it's my turn and I'm here seeking some advice on providing structural calculations.

I'm a practising structural engineer, working for a consultancy firm. I'm also self employed and paying tax- buying and selling cars. I met a builder at a party and he wants me to do some beam calcs for couple of house extensions around my area. I've done hundreds of work like this at work.

1. Do I have to be a 'chartered engineer' to carry out any private design work?
2. Would I be covered under builder's PI cover?

I want to know the legality of this, before I help him out and get into trouble with BC officer. I'd highly appreciate if anyone could advise me on this.

Many thanks

^woody^ · 18 Oct 2016

You dont need insurance and you dont need to be chartered.

Just try not to make any mistakes.

zakmuh · 18 Oct 2016

Nice one ^woody^

Cheers

chappers · 18 Oct 2016

But you do still have a liability if you make mistakes and it can happen to the best of us. If I was an engineer I'm not sure I would be able to sleep at night with out cover.
A professional liability claim could run into hundreds of thousands and a public liability claim into millions.
You might be able to shift some of the liability to the builder if you make it emphatically clear that you have no indemnity yourself and that it is his responsibility, but saying that I would think it unlikely that his insurers would allow him to take on liability outside of his field of work.
Is it worth it for a few extra quid in the pocket, Why not look into getting proper cover and maybe consider taking on a bit more of this type of private work.

zakmuh · 18 Oct 2016

Thanks for that Chappers.

Yeah, I've already mentioned that to the builder and he's okay with it. When I say 'okay', I'm not sure if he meant I'm covered or his PI do take outside of his scope of works as well.

Dave54 · 18 Oct 2016

You are the one who needs to be covered if something goes wrong. With all due respect to the builder, him being OK with it verbally is worth very little I'd have thought. I'd want a letter from his insurer saying you are covered.
Is the consultancy you work for OK with you doing outside work?

^woody^ · 18 Oct 2016

If someone can't do their job properly, then they should be in another job. Equally, the person should have confidence in their abilities to do their job, else they should not be doing it.

And if an engineer can't design a simple beam for a house extension, then they should be under it when it falls down.

endecotp · 18 Oct 2016

Yes, the "can't sleep at night" should be due to the question of the structure failing and someone being killed, not the danger of someone being killed and them you getting sued. Insurance doesn't stop people getting killed. If I were contracting a structural engineer, I'd want to be certain that the calcs were correct - not that he were insured.

chappers · 18 Oct 2016

endecotp said:
I'd want to be certain that the calcs were correct - not that he were insured.

So would I, but as;
1)the reason you went to said SE was because you couldn't do the calcs yourself and therefore can not actually be sure that SE has done them correctly.
2) With the best will in the world, mistakes do happen

...then the next best thing is to make sure things are covered in case things go wrong so that the client can have his house rebuilt or get the lifelong care that his now disabled daughter needs.

^woody^ said:
And if an engineer can't design a simple beam for a house extension, then they should be under it when it falls down.

But unfortunately it will be the customer who is, the one who employed the SE in good faith.

Elwood_Blues · 18 Oct 2016

Worst case scenario, if something you did the calcs for falls down, then you need (want) the insurance/legal cover to be able to defend you in the mess that unfolds. You might have done a perfectly good job of the calculations, the fault could be a construction mistake/not following your specs properly or something else completely not your fault. But the builder, and steel supplier (and any other parties involved) will probably have legal protection cover, and they'll be trying to deflect blame away from their party. So you are going to want someone fighting your corner too, and that could get expensive quickly.

^woody^ · 18 Oct 2016

The OP doesn't suddenly become incompetent as soon as he leaves the office and heads home.

He's already an SE. He can design beams. He can design beams without insurance.

The fact is, he does not need insurance. If he thinks that he needs it because he might make a mistake, then he is in the wrong job.

Insurance is only needed when he is entering a contract of work that requires it, or when he becomes Chartered and practises for himself.

Nakajo · 19 Oct 2016

You guys need to get yourselves an Act of Parliament. I can call myself a structural engineer if I want - but you definitely don't want me designing your beams. (They'd be really pretty though - until they failed)

zakmuh · 19 Oct 2016

Can I draw the conclusion that, legally, ONLY a qualified person can do calcs and a PI not required, unless required by the contract between the parties?

Only experienced SE should be involved in any construction work. As you know at work we submit a calc pack to the building control submission through the client (contractor) and we get lots of queries from the person checking the design. So the design is double checked and confirmed/approved by both parties.

With regards to house extensions, doesn't the BC officer inspect the work, check SE's calcs and comment/approve it? I thought this would be the case and nothing would fall down

tony1851 · 19 Oct 2016

It is indeed strange that 'architect' is a protected title, whereas 'structural engineer' isn't. The consequences of failure in those items the architect traditionally deals with (incorrect spec. of materials; poor weatherproofing etc) are usually far less serious than a major structural failure

tony1851 · 19 Oct 2016

zakmuh said:
Can I draw the conclusion that, legally, ONLY a qualified person can do calcs and a PI not required, unless required by the contract between the parties?

Only experienced SE should be involved in any construction work. As you know at work we submit a calc pack to the building control submission through the client (contractor) and we get lots of queries from the person checking the design. So the design is double checked and confirmed/approved by both parties.

With regards to house extensions, doesn't the BC officer inspect the work, check SE's calcs and comment/approve it? I thought this would be the case and nothing would fall down

You haven't been reading. A structural engineer does not have to be either insured or chartered, or in fact 'qualified', whatever that means.
For small domestic work (eg a breakthrough), the BCO will either know from past experience whether or not a beam is suitable, or will pass your figures on to their own SE for checking. BCOs themselves are not usually competent to check the actual figures.

diynot

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.

Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

Can I Give Calcs to Builders without PI?

Similar threads