Not a tumble drier fire! So the American says!

ericmark · 15 Aug 2017

They say it was not the tumble drier but why were experts brought from America do we not have any experts, or did they need some one to say what they wanted to hear?

BBC said:
He added that arcing damage found in the overhead light fitting would not have occurred if the fire began in the dryer because that would have tripped the power and prevented such damage occurring in the light.

Well if wired as normal so lighting and power is not supplied from same RCD in any one room how would that work?

Daily Post said:
On Wednesday Garry Lloyd Jones, 50, who lived with the two men, told the hearing he saw flames coming out of the tumble dryer before he escaped the blaze.

That does not seem to point to light fitting or iron.

BBC said:
Dr Morrison said earlier he could not rule out the possibility of a spontaneous fire beginning in a pile of towels which were outside the dryer.

Daily Post said:
Mr Latack, who travelled from Michigan in America to attend the inquest, said he believed the fire had been caused by the spontaneous combustion of towels in the dryer.

It would seem the towels were able to leave the dryer by themselves and pile themselves up? There are other reports but reading them it does seem the American really has much idea of British wiring practice. There are comments about towels

ITV said:
He said he looked into the utility room of the flat and saw the tumble dryer with the machine door open and some towels from the restaurant hanging out of it. + He said he looked into the utility room of the flat and saw the tumble dryer with the machine door open and some towels from the restaurant hanging out of it.

I would say it seems very unlikely that a drier switched off with the doors open could cause a fire, however the news reports should help us prevent it happening again. But these reports seem to tell us nothing other than the manufacturer is trying every way he can to get out of it.

bernardgreen · 15 Aug 2017

One posibility is the lint chamber was full of lint and there was a small area of the lint smoldering from when the drier had been used. That could smoulder for many hours before starting to burn with flames.

Is the manufacturer of the machine part of an American group whose lawyers are worried about large sums of maoney being paid if it is a fault in the machine of it's design ?

flameport · 15 Aug 2017

The article is obsessed with 'arcing' being the cause. While such things can happen, they are far more common with USA wiring, where impedances are typically high and fault currents low,. permitting arcing between conductors or at breaks in conductors. Partly why they are also obsessed with fitting arc fault detection devices to everything.
Arc faults are far less common here due to typically low impedances and high fault levels, resulting in most faults being cleared by the fuse/circuit breaker before any fire can occur.

It also mentions the dryer timer in the off position - so what? Has the person not considered a faulty timer or the smouldering issue as suggested by BG above?

spontaneous fire beginning in a pile of towels
Speculation veering into total fantasy.

bernardgreen · 15 Aug 2017

flameport said:
spontaneous fire beginning in a pile of towels

Haystacks can spontaneiusly catch fire if the hay was slightly damp when stacked. So maybe a very very very large stack of slightly damp towels might self ignite. Only the stack would be far to large to fit into a house..........

ub7rm · 15 Aug 2017

flameport said:
spontaneous fire beginning in a pile of towels
Speculation veering into total fantasy.

Not at all

https://www.imca-int.com/alert/994/fire-spontaneous-combustion-of-towels/

JohnD · 15 Aug 2017

oily or greasy cloths can self-ignite if tightly packed.

but if they'd been washed and dried? How much oil was on them?

ub7rm · 15 Aug 2017

If you follow the link I posted above you'll see that that increases the risk if any traces of oil remain. I have seen quite a few safety bulletins on this issue through my work.

JohnD · 15 Aug 2017

I've seen oily rags smouldering when I opened a painters cupboard. They had been stuffed away unwashed.

SimonH2 · 15 Aug 2017

Indeed, it's one of the warnings when using things like Danish Oil which is exothermic as it cures. If soaked rags (a cloth is the normal method of application) are then "scrunched up", the exothermic reaction may increase the temperature to the point where either the oil or cloth starts burning.
But it's hard to see how normal domestic towels, after a wash (who doesn't add extra detergent to a really dirty load ?), could have enough oil in them to do that.

EFLImpudence · 15 Aug 2017

Is that the cause of a lot of airing cupboard fires where they blame an electrical fault?

ericmark · 15 Aug 2017

ub7rm said:
Not at all

https://www.imca-int.com/alert/994/fire-spontaneous-combustion-of-towels/

Thank you for that I was unaware, so my post has at least through you shown how at least some tumble drier fires can be caused.

flameport · 15 Aug 2017

Oily rags != washed towels.

winston1 · 15 Aug 2017

flameport said:
While such things can happen, they are far more common with USA wiring, where impedances are typically high and fault currents low,. permitting arcing between conductors or at breaks in conductors. Partly why they are also obsessed with fitting arc fault detection devices to everything.
Arc faults are far less common here due to typically low impedances and high fault levels, resulting in most faults being cleared by the fuse/circuit breaker before any fire can occur.

Please explain.
A 1.2kW load on a 120v system would be 10 amps and 12 ohms.
A 1.2kW load on a 240v system would be 5 amps and 48 ohms.

It would seem impedances are somewhat lower in the USA and and fault currents higher.

JohnW2 · 16 Aug 2017

winston1 said:
Please explain ...... It would seem impedances are somewhat lower in the USA and and fault currents higher.

I have a feeling that flameport was talking about the impedance of the wiring, not the loads.

Kind Regards, John

deadshort · 16 Aug 2017

ub7rm said:
If you follow the link I posted above you'll see that that increases the risk if any traces of oil remain. I have seen quite a few safety bulletins on this issue through my work.

The towels were from a restaurant apparently? More likely to have oil or grease on them, it also would depend on the quantity?

DS

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Not a tumble drier fire! So the American says!

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