2 Spurs off a socket (ring)

M1Chanical · 26 Sep 2017

I've just visited a friends house, who has just had their kitchen renovated.

I noticed at one of the sockets that someone has spured off the ring, that already a had a spur on it. So there are 4 cables at the socket, 2 from the ring and 2 that go off to separate sockets. I don't believe this is allowed. Can a practicing electrcian confirm this

EFLImpudence · 26 Sep 2017

It's fine.

M1Chanical · 26 Sep 2017

Oh ok. I thought you were only allowed to tap off once at any point on a ring. Its all good and safe then

ban-all-sheds · 26 Sep 2017

EFLImpudence said:
It's fine.

So long as it does not result in the cable being overloaded, and the maker of the socket says the terminals can accept 4 conductors of that size and the physical task of getting the conductors in and the cables dressed was done OK.

Risteard · 26 Sep 2017

EFLImpudence said:
It's fine.

Many would disagree.

EFLImpudence · 26 Sep 2017

...but would they be correct?

sparkwright · 26 Sep 2017

M1Chanical said:
I've just visited a friends house, who has just had their kitchen renovated.

I noticed at one of the sockets that someone has spured off the ring, that already a had a spur on it. So there are 4 cables at the socket, 2 from the ring and 2 that go off to separate sockets. I don't believe this is allowed. Can a practicing electrcian confirm this

It's not allowed AFAICT. Every specification I have ever seen on what a ring circuit should be like has never permitted this.

I suppose to keep it in line with the 'rules' one could get some 30 amp connector blocks and some short bits of 2.5mm2 wire and make so there is a spur from the socket and and a spur from the connectors. Perhaps a bit pedantic.

However, just leaving it probably wouldn't pose a danger, as it's a bit of a daft rule in many ways.

Taylortwocities · 26 Sep 2017

sparkwright said:
Every specification I have ever seen on what a ring circuit should be like has never permitted this.

I suspect you are looking at guides on the way to do this. There is no regulation that prevents it.

sparkwright · 26 Sep 2017

Yes, in every On-Site Guide, text book and DIY book ever written.

Seems daft to ignore all these guidelines - is there a regulation that permits it?

EFLImpudence · 26 Sep 2017

On the contrary.

It seems, by the number of such discrepancies (or worst case scenarios) that it would be very wise to ignore all these guide(line)s bearing in mind for whom they are written.
Why would anyone who knows what they are doing need a guide?

That the OSG is mandatory for CP Scheme membership is nothing short of a damning indictment of them.

Do you expect there to be a regulation to state everything which may be done?
If you can't find one that prohibits it, which you won't, then you are free to design a circuit which complies.

sparkwright · 26 Sep 2017

Fair enough.

JohnW2 · 26 Sep 2017

Risteard said:
Many would disagree.

Quite possibly. If you are one of those "many", what are your specific reason(s) for disagreeing? Are the reasons related to the circuit or to putting four conductors into the terminals?

Kind Regards, John

Risteard · 27 Sep 2017

JohnW2 said:
Quite possibly. If you are one of those "many", what are your specific reason(s) for disagreeing? Are the reasons related to the circuit or to putting four conductors into the terminals?

Kind Regards, John

My personal opinion is that it is not explicitly prohibited by the Wiring Reguations (although an Informative appendix does reject the idea), however yes certainly many (most/all) socket outlets are not designed to accomodate four or more conductors in each terminal. The more important issue, however, is that you are increasing the likelihood of imbalancing the ring and therefore overloading one of the legs - consideration of this is a requirement of BS7671 so you could argue largely prohibits the (appalling) practice.

ban-all-sheds · 27 Sep 2017

As I said:
So long as it does not result in the cable being overloaded, and the maker of the socket says the terminals can accept 4 conductors of that size and the physical task of getting the conductors in and the cables dressed was done OK.

JohnW2 · 27 Sep 2017

Risteard said:
My personal opinion is that it is not explicitly prohibited by the Wiring Reguations (although an Informative appendix does reject the idea), however yes certainly many (most/all) socket outlets are not designed to accomodate four or more conductors in each terminal.

Yes, I accept that the number of conductors in a terminal could sometimes be an issue.

Risteard said:
The more important issue, however, is that you are increasing the likelihood of imbalancing the ring and therefore overloading one of the legs - consideration of this is a requirement of BS7671 so you could argue largely prohibits the (appalling) practice.

Some do indeed argue that (usually without giving the slightest thought {if they are capable of it} to the question of what part of the ring they are talking about). However, do you feel that it is an equally "appalling practice" to take spurs from two different sockets that are just a few inches apart (and, again, without consideration of what part of the ring is concerned).

Kind Regards, John

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2 Spurs off a socket (ring)

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