Building Regs and Kitchen Extension

SimonH2 · 3 Dec 2017

Putting a socket in the adjacent cupboard is common, and would be my preference generally. Sockets behind the appliance are inconvenient, and can sometimes get in the way of being able to push the appliance all the way back. There's also the issue of having to plug in the appliance and then push it into the hole - and hope that the cable doesn't (eg) get trapped underneath it.
While I realise that most owner-occupiers will seldom (if ever) test their appliances, for those that do and others where it's either required or at least "a darned good idea" it's a lot easier to do if the plug is accessible.
Yes you can ask the electrician to leave a loop of cable. The kitchen fitter only needs to drill a hole big enough to fit the cable through, and then you fit the surface box over the hole. You'll need a hole big enough for a plug in the side of the cabinet.

James999ft said:
I'm going to have a gap of about 125 mm between back of cabinets and wall

Translation: You are going to have FIVE INCHES of wasted space at the back of your units.

JohnW2 · 3 Dec 2017

echoes said:
For you and I it's not a big deal. But for someone who cannot physically move a washing machine or dishwasher which is faulty, having a switch is handy.

Fair enough - but that's an argument for having a switch being "handy", not for have an FCU.

echoes said:
I admit these situations do not arise very often at all, but it's happened a few times ...

Again, fair enough, experiences will obviously vary. However, I wonder what sort of situations you are thinking of? Over the years/decades, I've experienced a few situations in which an appliance has needed to be switched off fairly quickly but, as I have implied, I do not recall any time when us of the appliance's on/off switch has not been adequate - although I'm not saying that it would inevitably always be adequate.

Having said all that, I do have accessible switches for all the large appliances in my kitchen and utility room (with, in most cases, non-readily-accessible unswitched sockets behind them), but I'm not convinced that any of them have ever been switched off!

Kind Regards, John

EFLImpudence · 3 Dec 2017

No, 4.92126 inches.

EFLImpudence · 3 Dec 2017

Always reminds me of Blue Peter when we went metric.
They would just translate recipes instead of using the equivalent proportional amounts.

First, take 113 grammes of butter ...

SimonH2 · 3 Dec 2017

echoes said:
For you and I it's not a big deal. But for someone who cannot physically move a washing machine or dishwasher which is faulty, having a switch is handy.

Indeed. It's easy for those of us who "know about these things" and are reasonably physically capable to say "just pull the washer (or whatever) out". I would suggest that there are far more people who are incapable or who would be "apprehensive" at having to do so than there are people who would be capable and willing to do so.
It may not be a common occurrence, but it does happen. Shortly after we moved, SWMBO put the tumble drier on and it tripped the RCD - and I was out. Fortunately the RCD would reset and stay in with the drier switched off at the front panel only, as she would not have been able to pull the unit out and reach the switch behind.

JohnW2 · 3 Dec 2017

SimonH2 said:
Indeed. It's easy for those of us who "know about these things" and are reasonably physically capable to say "just pull the washer (or whatever) out".

I've never intended to suggest otherwise. However, what I have said is that, on the rare occasions when these problems (when the appliance's on/off switch is not adequate) do arise, it's not usually going to be the end of the world to have to live with the whole circuit de-energised (by an RCD, or by manual 'isolation' with an MCB) until someone who does "know" and is physically capable comes to one's aid.

I have to say that (maybe as a reflection on my ways of thinking a long time ago) my electrical installation is absolutely strewn with 'isolation devices' ("just in case") - many dozens of 'additional points of potential failure'. However, in many years, very few (if any) of them have ever really been used 'in anger' (sometimes used just for 'convenience') and it is that which influences what suggestions/advice I now offer to others! However, it's obviously a personal decision for whoever has to live with the installation.

Kind Regards, John

James999ft · 3 Dec 2017

SimonH2 said:
Translation: You are going to have FIVE INCHES of wasted space at the back of your units.

No, not 5 inches of wasted space. The standard service gap is 50 mm isn't it? So at worst I'm going to have 75 mm of wasted space. The 75 mm is because I have a vertical steel column that is part of the structure stopping my bathroom from falling into the kitchen. Unfortunately steel has to go right behind the fridge so no option to cut a cabinet around it and next best was to pull cupboards forwards by this amount.

75 mm of inefficiently used space possibly, but not a mm of it is wasted...

echoes · 3 Dec 2017

JohnW2 said:
...
it's not usually going to be the end of the world ...

I agree. However, Mrs echoes regards a tripped RCD as a sign of great tribulation and that white stallions will be coming unless she can get the power back on easily.

Those 20A switches or FCUs have postponed the four horsemen a few times.

JohnW2 · 3 Dec 2017

echoes said:
I agree. However, Mrs echoes regards a tripped RCD as a sign of great tribulation and that white stallions will be coming unless she can get the power back on easily. Those 20A switches or FCUs have postponed the four horsemen a few times.

Fair enough. I have to say that my other half would be far more likely to scream at anyone she could think of (family, friends, neighbours, strangers passing by ...!!) to ask for help than to even dream of 'daring to touch anything in the CU', even if she thought she knew which bit of it 'needed touching' (which she probably wouldn't). She has, in the past, sent me frantic messages when I've been 'on the other side of the world' to ask for advice when a dying incandescent bulb/lamp has tripped an MCB

Kind Regards, John

Mike10 · 3 Dec 2017

When I built the kitchen in my new extension I placed a socket behind each of the appliances. These then had their cables run back to a single point and connected to grid switches. By wiring the grid switches input feeds in a loop I could create a dedicated 'appliance ring'. This gives a central point for all the isolation and avoids having loads of switches above the worktops.
Obviously that is not easy to retrofit though.
Pictures and details are on the 'electrics' page of my build website: http://www.myhouseproject.me.uk/

In a similar situation to what has been mentioned above I got a call at work one morning from my mrs to say that when she switched the integrated dishwasher on the RCD tripped. I told her to switch the dishwasher off at the wall grid switch and reset the RCD. She was happy she had the electric back and I could continue my day without worry (except for what the dishwasher's problem was, obviously).

JohnW2 · 4 Dec 2017

Mike10 said:
When I built the kitchen in my new extension I placed a socket behind each of the appliances. These then had their cables run back to a single point and connected to grid switches. By wiring the grid switches input feeds in a loop I could create a dedicated 'appliance ring'. This gives a central point for all the isolation and avoids having loads of switches above the worktops.

That's quite a common arrangement.

There is a potential problem (or, at least, non-ideal aspect) of doing this if the circuit supplying the kitchen is itself a ring (rather than radial) circuit. Since all the grid switches are connected to the supply circuit at essentially 'the same point', this means that a high load (perhaps most of the total load) is being drawn from a single point of the ring, and that can theoretically result in overloading of cables if that 'single point' is fairly close to one end of the main circuit. Ring final circuits are really intended for situations in which the load is reasonably well distributed throughout the length of the ring, and designers are required to ensure that the circuit and nature of intended use is 'not likely' to result in any of the cable to be overloaded for significant periods of time. A radial circuit does not have this problem.

If you look in the archives of this forum, you will find hundreds of pages of discussion/argument as to whether it is compliant with regulations to connect 20A grid switches to a 32A circuit, both because of their rating and (in the case of a ring final circuit) the fact that they are not "accessories to BS 1363". However, I personally cannot get excited about that and, as I've said, there are countless kitchens which have such an arrangement.

Kind Regards, John

Mike10 · 4 Dec 2017

The grid switches are the only thing on that circuit (the sockets are on a seperate ring) and the CU is just the other side of the wall so only short runs of cable and both cables are the same length.

ban-all-sheds · 4 Dec 2017

I would far rather have a grid plate with a few switches and fuses in it on a wall than holes in my cupboards, sockets fighting with the tins of caviar and foie gras, etc.

JohnW2 · 4 Dec 2017

Mike10 said:
The grid switches are the only thing on that circuit (the sockets are on a seperate ring) and the CU is just the other side of the wall so only short runs of cable and both cables are the same length.

Fair enough - that's fine then.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 4 Dec 2017

ban-all-sheds said:
I would far rather have a grid plate with a few switches and fuses in it on a wall than holes in my cupboards, sockets fighting with the tins of caviar and foie gras, etc.

If I had to choose between those two options, I would certainly have that same preference.

I have, in my time, been known to put sockets behind (easily removed) drawers of kitchen units, which avoids the caviar and foie gras problem.

Kind Regards, John

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Building Regs and Kitchen Extension

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