Building Regs and Kitchen Extension

Hi - I've had some to and fro with the electrician on the original question of whether I need a new CU

Firstly he said I needed a new CU as old one was plastic - I disproved that with the help of this forum, NICEIC helpdesk, IET website FAQs and my local council building control who all said no need to upgrade.

Then he said I needed to replace it as I needed 4 circuits from CU and there were only 3 available when he disconnected old kitchen - I then pointed out the two spares that have not been used since the power to the shed was disconnected about 5 years ago and he grudgingly accepted he could use these

Finally he is saying that I still need to replace the CU tails as these are, in his words, 45 years old and likely to be objectively inadequate.

The CU tails are slightly slimmer, and look older, than the meter tails. Meter tails are red and blue, CU tails are red and either blue or black - hard to tell as they are a bit grubby and faded but no visible cracking or other damage in the insulation. I would say the meter tails are probably 25mm2 and if so the CU tails could be 16mm2. The insulation material looks like the same material in both sets and is a hard shiny plastic (PVC?). Either way I think it is likely that the meter tails where replaced in last 5 years or so when the meter was

Anyone know the history of changing colour codes, size and insulation requirements that would allow me to narrow down the age of the CU tails?

I'm probably going to have him replaced, but want to get my facts right first. Also enjoying repeatedly proving him wrong

thanks

James999ft said:

Finally he is saying that I still need to replace the CU tails as these are, in his words, 45 years old and likely to be objectively inadequate.

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Even if he were right, that's hardly a big job. We cannot tell from afar whether they are "inadequate" but, assuming they are PVC (almost certainly) the "45 years old" is not, in itself, particularly relevant.

James999ft said:

I'm probably going to have him replaced, but want to get my facts right first. Also enjoying repeatedly proving him wrong

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Since he is always arguing, or begrudgingly accepting that he's wrong, I would think you could well do with someone else. Don't forget that you can only question things that you think of questioning - so goodness knows how many other things he has incorrect ideas about!

Kind Regards, John

He's quoted £270 + VAT to upgrade the tails and replace 3 of the circuit breakers with RCD protected ones (even though only 1 is needed, so price might comes a tiny bit - but I presume the breakers are a few quid each & just pull out so not much). These are London prices but still feels a bit toppy to me, as did his quote to supply and fit new CU of £750 + VAT.

I think he is looking for a way to climb down without admitting he's wrong, and I expect whatever I pay here will be offset by lower prices on the other things he has been asked to do over and above the standard amount in my contract (more sockets etc). Of course I might be wrong and the costs of the other extras might go up to compensate for the loss of his new CU work. Either way I want an all in price for all of his work before he does anything else, and I am still stuck with knowing he is either incompetent or dishonest and now resentful

The issue is a major pain in the backside. I have a main contractor who negotiated the original price with me and who have their name on the advertising board outside the house but otherwise just project manage, a sub-contractor who's guys do all the actual work on site and then sub-sub contractors for electrics & plumbing. Apart from this one wrong'un the other guys involved have been fantastic and it has actually been a pleasure to watch my house get dismantled and rebuilt by professionals.

RCBOs are £20 to £30 each depending on the make.

JohnW2 said:

James999ft said:

I'm probably going to have him replaced, but want to get my facts right first. Also enjoying repeatedly proving him wrong

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Since he is always arguing, or begrudgingly accepting that he's wrong, I would think you could well do with someone else.

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ban-all-sheds said:

So now you have a situation where you've got an electrician who either does not understand the regulations, and is misleading you as a result, or does know them but is lying to you in order to make more money.

IMO neither type of person should be allowed to continue, and no reputable contractor should continue to use him as a sub-contractor.

If you are minded to carry on with him, worry about what else he might be tempted to do as a result of either his ignorance or his dishonesty, now compounded by the disgruntlement of having been found out.

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Again - I would question what it says about the main contractor that he thinks this guy is OK to use on his projects.

JohnW2 said:

Even if he were right, that's hardly a big job. We cannot tell from afar whether they are "inadequate" but, assuming they are PVC (almost certainly) the "45 years old" is not, in itself, particularly relevant.

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I had a closer look last night, the meter tails have PVC insulation and are blue & red, whereas the CU tails have braided outer insulation and are red & black. To a non-expert replacing them doesn't look excessive

One has to break the Electricity boards seal to pull main fuse to remove/replace tails. has this person got the authority to do that ?

Bosswhite said:

One has to break the Electricity boards seal to pull main fuse to remove/replace tails. has this person got the authority to do that ?

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Don't know, but that was going to be my next question. I thought it was only the supplier who could - or will they give permission to an electrician who asks?

James999ft said:

Don't know, but that was going to be my next question. I thought it was only the supplier who could - or will they give permission to an electrician who asks?

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In general, and nearly always, it is only the 'supplier' who is allowed to pull service fuses. I believe that some suppliers have 'approved' some electricians to do this (after appropriate training), but if that is still the case, I think it's a relative rarity.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 said:

In general, and nearly always, it is only the 'supplier' who is allowed to pull service fuses. I believe that some suppliers have 'approved' some electricians to do this (after appropriate training), but if that is still the case, I think it's a relative rarity.

Kind Regards, John

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I suspect that timely visits from the service fuse fairies are more common than is admitted.

echoes said:

I suspect that timely visits from the service fuse fairies are more common than is admitted.

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Very true.

However, in the case of replacing the tails (meter-to-CU) there is an added consideration, since we're talking about more than just pulling the cutout fuse. It seems very rare for anyone to get excited (or 'take any action') as a result of absent cutout seals. However, not all that logically, they do seem to take much more interest in missing meter seals.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 said:

Very true.

However, in the case of replacing the tails (meter-to-CU) there is an added consideration, since we're talking about more than just pulling the cutout fuse. It seems very rare for anyone to get excited (or 'take any action') as a result of absent cutout seals. However, not all that logically, they do seem to take much more interest in missing meter seals.

Kind Regards, John

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Yes, although I do see the logic in getting more excited about possible evidence of meter by-passing.
As an aside, my service fuse has been missing its seal for 7 years after an electrician was accompanied by the fuse-fairies. He'd come round at my request to measure Ze (which he didn't actually do), and I asked what rating the service fuse probably was. 10 seconds later, the fairies had revealed a 60A fuse.

Scottish and Southern did allow registered electricians to pull the fuse. Just call and ask them to replacee the seal.

I think I recall them changing this (possibly after complaints from other DNOs) - but I may be wrong.

echoes said:

Yes, although I do see the logic in getting more excited about possible evidence of meter by-passing.

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Yes, but as I said, it's not really logical. Only someone naive or very technically ignorant would think that the meter could not be 'bypassed' with the cutout seals broken, but meter seals intact!

echoes said:

As an aside, my service fuse has been missing its seal for 7 years after an electrician was accompanied by the fuse-fairies. He'd come round at my request to measure Ze (which he didn't actually do), and I asked what rating the service fuse probably was. 10 seconds later, the fairies had revealed a 60A fuse.

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I can better that. My service fuses were without seals for the first 20 or more years I was in this house, until eventually someone put some seals on when changing the meter.

Kind Regards, John