Outside Socket

TonyManc · 8 Dec 2017

Brief outline:

There is a length of armoured cable, on it's own mcb, that goes from the main consumer unit in the house, to a 'box' in the lounge. In the box in the lounge is an mcb, the cable is connected to it. There is a feed from the mcb which goes outside (still armoured cable) and feeds a double socket in the garden. All good so far.

I want to add an exterior socket in a different location, via the box in the lounge.
I had planned to replace the box in the lounge with a small garage consumer unit with a couple of mcbs' in it but, I'm not sure if this is the way to proceed.
Is there a better way to do this? Can I just connect in to the existing mcb in the box in the lounge, for example?

Any guidance/advice, gratefully received.

JohnD · 8 Dec 2017

I don't know French wiring regulations and practice. Perhaps someone will be along who does.

Have you got a French wiring book?

Doggit · 8 Dec 2017

And can you read it. But essentially, whilst you could add a garage consumer type unit to the lounge cupboard, do you have an RCD in the main consumer unit. If you don't, then you might be better off getting an outside IP rate socket with an RCD that can be plugged into a socket inside the house.

winston1 · 8 Dec 2017

Can't see why you need a garage consumer unit. Do such things exist in France? I would just connect to the existing MCB. I believe you are allowed around 5 sockets per MCB in France.

IWalkLikeHimaMartian · 10 Dec 2017

NF C 15-100 – Heights of accessories

Socket outlets, indoors, measured from height of pins = minimum 50mm, maximum 1,3m, then from 1,8m upwards unless installed for a specific reason e.g. hotte de cuisine.

Light switches, measured to centre/pivot point = min. 0,9m, max 1,3m. I always fit to the average of 1,1m, which is also the height I find works for sockets above kitchen worktops i.e. sockets & switches on the same wall all align.

Installations following normes prior to Amendment 5.

2,5mm² socket circuit = 8 sockets, where a double counts as one i.e. you could have 8 doubles, or 4 doubles & 4 singles etc.. Use maximum 20A disjoncteur or 16A fuse (16A disjoncteur advised).
1,5mm² socket circuit = 5 sockets, where a double counts as one i.e. you could have 5 doubles, or 3 doubles & 2 singles etc.. Use maximum 16A disjoncteur, no fuses allowed.

Installations following Amendment 5.

2,5mm² socket circuit = 12 outlets, doubles now counted as 2 e.g. a ciruit could be made up of maximum 6 doubles, or 3 doubles & 6 singles, etc.. Use maximum 20A disjoncteur (16A disjoncteur advised) – FUSES NOW BANNED.

1,5mm² socket circuit = 8 outlets, doubles now counted as 2 e.g. a ciruit could be made up of maximum 4 doubles, or 2 doubles & 4 singles, etc.. Use maximum 16A disjoncteur – FUSES NOW BANNED.

Despite the normes allowing 1,5mm² lighting circuits to be ptotected by 16A disjoncteurs it is best practice to use 10A max.

The number of différentiels used to be a product of the floor area of the installation – see historic posts for all that. Under A5 that now changes to a minimum of one x Type AC & 1 x Type A, with a maximum of 8 circuits per device i.e. if you have 24 circuits you would need at least 3 devices, & so on. The power handling of each device must now either be equal to or greater than the maximum incoming supply (so 63A covers all tarif bleu installations), OR must exceed the sum of 50% of all standard circuits plus 100% of any direct heating circuits (inc. water heaters) or electric car charging points connected to the same device e.g. 2 x 16A sockets circuits x 50% (16A), + 2 x 10A lighting circuits x 50% (10A), + 2 x 10A heating curcuits x 100% (20A), plus 1 x 16A charging point x 100% (16A) = 62A , therefore 63A device required.

In France all high load appliances require their own dedicated 2,5mm (or bigger) circuit from the board. Unless you have need of anything that requires more than 16A this terminates in a single socket outlet – I always use a 16A disjoncteur in the board. Washing machines & electric hobs must be protected by a Type A différentiel. All this does away for any need for local switching/fusing/spurs etc.

Any kitchen must have (by regulations) a 32A 6mm² circuit available for the use of an all electric cooker, or separate electric hob. Such a circuit needs to be on the Type A device mentioned above. An independant oven is served by separate dedicated circuit, also as mentioned above.

A5 now requires a separate circuit of 6 outlets in the kitchen i.e. not part of any other socket circuit.

A typcial kitchen now ends up with many circuits by regulation:

1 x set of 6 socket outlets

1 x 32A hob/cooker, via Type A diff.

1 x 16A independant oven

1 x 16A dishwasher

1 x 16A washing machine, via Type A diff.

1 x 16A tumble dryer

1 x 16A freezer, protected via a separate Hpi différentiel (not a regulation but is advisable if you keep large quantities of frozen goods. The Hpi device is less prone to nusiance tripping due to external spikes & fluctuations of supply & therefore keeps the peas frozen).

Footnote: In case it’s not been obvious already all final circuits must have 30mA protection one way or another.

P.S. I’ve never heard of any one using UK 15A sockes domestically since the advent of the appalling idea of ring mains & 13A fused plugs. I am, however, remarkably familiar with 15A stuff from my days in theatre lighting electrics, where it is still very much used, though 16A CEE17 is now standard for all stuff that simply requires 230V, as opposed to a dimmer feed.

https://www.frenchentree.com/france-forum/topic/electrical-regs-france/

winston1 · 10 Dec 2017

So what is a disjoncteur? What is a Hpi différentiel? What is so appalling about the idea of rings? They are a tried and successful method that has worked for many decades. FYI 15 amp sockets are used domestically in India, Nepal, Bhutan, and South Africa.

IWalkLikeHimaMartian · 10 Dec 2017

winston1 said:
So what is a disjoncteur?

A breaker or MCB. I suspect the OP knows that.

winston1 said:
What is a Hpi différentiel?

https://www.frenchentree.com/france-forum/topic/interrupteur-differential-30ma-type-a-or-ac/
I suspect the OP is also aware of the difference. But he/she can easily ask or google.
Hpi defferential disjoncteur (high immunization) is self explanatory in the link.
"The Hpi device is less prone to nusiance tripping due to external spikes & fluctuations of supply & therefore keeps the peas frozen)."

Also a very useful site.
https://www.installation-renovation-electrique.com/interrupteur-differentiel-type-ou-type-ac/
Use the google translate facility.

winston1 said:
What is so appalling about the idea of rings? They are a tried and successful method that has worked for many decades. FYI 15 amp sockets are used domestically in India, Nepal, Bhutan, and South Africa.

AFAIK, rings are only used in UK. The opinion was of the person I referred to. It is not my intention to discuss the merits of electrical norms in different countries. The OP is not in India, Nepal Bhutan or South Africa, so it is a bit irrelevant.

TonyManc · 11 Dec 2017

Thanks to all for the replies. I get the basics of what and how regarding French electrics in the home and, to be honest, once you get your head around it, it's really quite simple, and straight forward to do.
With respect to all, it didn't really answer my question. The cable going from the mcb/disjoncteur to the socket outside, can I tap another feed into it for a cable to another exterior socket, i.e. Double the outfeed cables from the mcb or is that a no-no?
Thanks in advance

Doggit · 11 Dec 2017

Not best practice, but you can if you're desperate to. The caveat being that you don't overload the MCBs rating.

TonyManc · 11 Dec 2017

Thanks Doggit. Best practice would be nice. Are there any other options given what I have available to me? Is there such a thing as a dual mcb for example? (That may not make sense, but I know what I mean

)

IWalkLikeHimaMartian · 11 Dec 2017

Doggit said:
Not best practice, but you can if you're desperate to. The caveat being that you don't overload the MCBs rating.

Perhaps some learned person can explain the difference between two sockets, in line, so to speak, and two sockets in a star configuration.
As far as I can see, the two sockets in a star configuration is no less safe, or worst practice than the alternative.
If the capacity for the cables exist in the MCB, I see little difference.

Doggit · 12 Dec 2017

You can normally get small consumer units that take 2 breakers, but I'm not sure what's available to you over there.

IWalkLikeHimaMartian · 12 Dec 2017

Doggit said:
You can normally get small consumer units that take 2 breakers, but I'm not sure what's available to you over there.

We have already established that is not necessary.

Outside Socket

Doggit

Doggit

Doggit

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