18th 544.1.2
- Thread starter EFLImpudence
- Start date
Sponsored Links
Alan:
Is your thinking caused by a fundamental misconception?
I cannot think of any other reason for your continued lack of understanding and refusal to use the correct terms or even topology.
Are you thinking that 'bonding' is applied to metal supply pipes in a property to 'protect' pipes which exit the property for the benefit of people outside, instead of the correct reason which is to protect people inside from low impedance paths to earth through pipes which enter the property?
Is your thinking caused by a fundamental misconception?
I cannot think of any other reason for your continued lack of understanding and refusal to use the correct terms or even topology.
Are you thinking that 'bonding' is applied to metal supply pipes in a property to 'protect' pipes which exit the property for the benefit of people outside, instead of the correct reason which is to protect people inside from low impedance paths to earth through pipes which enter the property?
As you know, 'remaining polite' is part of my nature (at least, how I try to be!), and I usually succeed - but I have to say that this discussion has been challenging to that philosophy.
As well as 'the obvious' problem, it does seem that there might be some ongoing misunderstandings about terminology (maybe even on the part of you and I), particularly in relation to the meaning of 'supply pipe', not to mention some apparent problems in not understanding the whole concept of main bonding.
Alan: Main Bonding is a matter of concern only to electricians, and they are concerned because of potential risks to people inside the property. As I've implied before, if I were a utility company (or a person writing regulations relevant to those utilities), I think the last thin I would really want would be countless people connecting 'my' (the utility company's) pipes to their electrical installations - so I certainly would not insist on doing it. The utility companies have to accept that electricians do it (when necessary), to protect people inside properties, but any effects it has on the utility supply or suppliers tend, I would think, to be undesirable, rather than desirable, as far as their utility supply was concerned. It would therefore be odd, or even bizarre, if utility companies (or the regulations they work under) insisted on doing it when electricians said that it was not necessary.
Kind Regards, John
Sponsored Links
For what it's worth, you're actually wrong there, at least on two occasions. Just over 30 years ago when I moved into my present house, I installed Main Bonding (which was needed) to an incoming LPG pipe (in the right place, since those who installed the LPG stuff didn't do that - and, similarly, I installed a main bond (again needed, and installed in the right place) to my natural gas supply in my previous house - since there was no bonding when I moved in.
Kind Regards, John
I think my fundamental misconception was in believing that those that were giving out advise on this forum, allbeit a DIY one, particually those who appeared to have in depth knowledge of the regulations were in fact in some way professionally connected with the profession. However the earlier post from John showed otherwise.
Yes I admit I was to some extent trying to portray that impression so someone would actually quote relevant regs to fully back up their opinion.
I admit, during the course of my working life I have in some extent been involved with electrical installation work from around, as I said previously, I think it was 13/14th edition. So from around early mid 60's. Left that and became qualified in Radio & TV Servicing + Colour. During that time became a Retained fireman in the village whilst by definition of that job continued working normally. During that period I enjoyed firefighting type jobs and went on to to become a fulltime firefighter. Continuing with previous jobs at the same time!
When I was discharged from fireservice I trained and became a qualified gasman and a member of CORGI, later to become Gas Safe. I also hold a G3 qualification, permitting me to install and service unvented cylinders (hence reason for outside pipe question earlier). Then rather than waiting for a sparks to come, and wishing to become complete boiler servicing (including electrical sections) inhouse (basically been self employed all working life) I became 17th edition * qualified. So do have some genuine electrical knowledge.
So basically I am a qualified gasman, unvented cylinder man (and continue to be so according to the cirtificate I hold - they changed to rules later to period of 5 years) and electrician although in reality I am retired and not a member of any of 'the clubs'. Was a member if The Institute of Plumbing. In reality I would class them also as a 'club' you can join - provided you have the required qualifications oh and pays your money when they ask for it!
Sorry maybe 16th edition * Cannot honestly remember if I actually went on and did the 17th without searching in loft it's a long time ago.
OK wasn't trying to imply anything just asked. 30years ago interesting probably steel service pipe. Had you still been there and if it was steel I would have suggested that you have it checked as steel pipe is no longer acceptable for new installations since (again from memory) the HSE instructed LPG suppliers to have metal service pipes replaced with MDPE following major fire caused by corroded metal piping.
I'm not sure whether or not you are clear about the two houses I mentioned....
My previous house, which I bought about 40 years ago and move out of (to present one) just over 30 years ago had natural gas, undoubtedly supplied through steel pipe (in fact, I strongly suspect that it was the original 1920's gas supply installation). However, despite the fact that it needed it, it definitely had no main bond (nor any evidence that it ever had had), which is why I installed it myself.
I moved into my present house (which is the one with LPG) about 31 years ago, and had the LPG installation put in at that time. There is about 60 metres of underground MDPE between the tank and my house, but at both ends of the MDPE (where it is connected to the tank and where it emerges and enters my house) it changes to steel underground (presumably because it is not permitted to have non-metal gas pipe above ground or within my house) - and I presume that it remains non-permissible to have plastic pipe in those situations. The steel only comes a few inches out of the ground, goes straight into a (metal!) outdoor 'emergency cutoff tap' and from there enters my house in copper pipe - which is what I have had to bond, since those who installed the pipework did not. There is only a couple of feel of the steel underground, but that';s enough to require main bonding.
It's interesting to hear what you say about steel LPG pipes corroding - since, ironically, Calor have started telling me that the MDPE may need to be replaced soon "because it has been in the ground for 30 years"!
Kind Regards, John
The other main participant in this discussion, EFLI, is "professionally connected with the profession". albeit he fairly recently retired.
As anyone here could tell you, I virtually never attempt to 'blow my own trumpet' here but, in this exceptional situation, I would dare to suggest that I probably have at least as much knowledge about electrical principles, practices and regulations as do many electricians (the main thing I lack being 'experience'), and I can assure you (as has EFLI) that what I've been telling you is correct. If some of the other electricians here had not kept away (probably because of the length and nature of the discussion), I am sure that most/all would say the same as what you have been told.
Kind Regards, John
At one time all the underground LPG pipe would have been steel and it corroded. In your case I would think they are actually refering to the metal part that is joined via a transitional fitting to the MDPE. Not knowing how far your tank is from property but if short distance cost would say replace it all but if it is a long distance and there is no butt electrofusion joints in the MDPE then can see no reason why the metal section cannot be replaced with MDPE and jointed with an elecrtofusion coupling.
You are 100% correct that MDPE pipe is not permitted within the building (because in case of fire it is permitted above ground provide it is protected in a glass reinforced plastic sleeve). That would melt it and effectivly leave an unlimited gas supply to fuel the fire. Like the blue water it should not be visible as UV rays can destroy it.
Incidently don't know if you are aware but that is your pipe and not belonging to Calor. That I think is a con. My LPG here is all plastic and the tank is burried in the ground. Needed a big hole digging by me and a friend.
There was an instance in London, I think, where the MDPE was taken inside the building into a meter room again, I think, it was a block of flats. Once HSE became aware they were ordered to have it replaced.
Last edited:
Probably under the stairs! the steel pipe would have presumably come up (EFLI) threaded at the end and would nornally have an insulation bit at that point. The steel pipe was normally wrapped/covered in some insulating material. The pipe would then feed into the meter via an emergency valve to a 'gas type' soldered fitting to the meter, through the meter and out again via a lead pipe.
Over time the lead on the consumer side would be replaced due to various work inside the property. The lead on the service side was replaced (or should have been) by the gas company but many were not. Any RGI seeing this pipe still in lead is required to call it in and it would be replaced these days using an anaconda pipe.
What you had would be a standard Gas Company (at the time) installation. Any earthing arrangement must be on consumer side of the meter. Other side including meter is gas company property. These days if the supply pipe is lead disturbing it can easily lead to a leak.
That's in part really because all quotes I have made have been deemed irrelevant or the writers of them have no idea what they are writing about.
This is what I have always claimed is correct plus water pipes including central heating ones:
View attachment 150621
View attachment 150621
DIYnot Local
Staff member
If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.
Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.
Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local
Sponsored Links
