18th 544.1.2

JohnW2 · 20 Oct 2018

AlanE said:
Copy of the specifications requires when requesting the use of combined neutral earth earthing terminal. Note where it says:
Equipotential bonding is required between the earth conductor and the following extraneous conductive parts:
* Water installation pipes
* Gas installation pipes .....

As EFLI said about BS7671, it would be far better if they made it clear that the list (including water and gas installations pipes) is (which it is) a list of things which may (but also may not) be extraneous conductive parts, and it's only the ones which are that require bonding.

Much as I like 'vigorous debates', I'm not into hitting my head against a brick wall - so, as they say, "I'm out", at least as far as trying to find ways to help you understand are concerned.

Kind Regards, John

333rocky333 · 20 Oct 2018

JohnW2 said:
It would be interesting to hear from those who have access to earlier editions.

Kind Regards, John

15th incorporating 1984 amendments

20181020_222420

333rocky333
20 Oct 2018

20181020_220927

333rocky333
20 Oct 2018

AlanE · 20 Oct 2018

SUNRAY said:
From about '73 to '77 I did a lot of new build work and I can assure everyone that the inspectors would check the resistance to earth of every single metal window and door handle and a random sample of hinges. They checked that all metal services entering a room were bonded, including the radiator. Without it the supply would not be connected.

As I recall, the regs implied something like 'all exposed metal work' and it was far too easy to interpret it far and away above it's intent. I'm totally convinced some inspectors, or their companies!, took it to ridiculous extremes but there was no power without conforming .

I can also remember being caught up in that fiascio but only in the case of sinks and waste supplies. Sink manufacturers even welded on earth srtaps. to assist. Just remembered there was a company that developed pipe fittings that were made with welded of formed terminal fo use under boilers etc.

I posted earlier a publication, published by the IEE, relating to that question. It was dismissed as a myth saying it was written people not understanding the regulations. Farsical was written people not understanding the regulations it was written by the same people who bl00dy wrote the things!

As few posts ago details of requirements if consumers wishing to have a combined neutral earth. Despite that say they are wrong. Who is more qualified a DIY forum or all the technical expertese of the network providers and the IEE. No challenge in my opinion

333rocky333 · 20 Oct 2018

AlanE said:
I can also remember being caught up in that fiascio but only in the case of sinks and waste supplies. Sink manufacturers even welded on earth srtaps. to assist. Just remembered there was a company that developed pipe fittings that were made with welded of formed terminal fo use under boilers etc.

That weren't a myth, that was required some time ago, the myth was people bonding door knobs and hinges etc.
But you keep chopping and changing between Main bonding and Supplementary bonding

20181020_211017

333rocky333
20 Oct 2018

EFLImpudence · 20 Oct 2018

AlanE said:
I posted earlier a publication, published by the IEE, relating to that question. It was dismissed as a myth saying it was written people not understanding the regulations. Farsical was written people not understanding the regulations it was written by the same people who bl00dy wrote the things!

See below other things they also wrote.

As few posts ago details of requirements if consumers wishing to have a combined neutral earth. Despite that say they are wrong. Who is more qualified a DIY forum or all the technical expertese of the network providers and the IEE.

We have pointed out many times how it is you who is misreading things.
Where your Gas people only quote part of the regulations you accept that without question.

No challenge in my opinion

You are clearly an idiot incapable of thinking for yourself, totally lacking in skill and judgement because of a complete incomprehension of how electricity works.

SUNRAY · 20 Oct 2018

AlanE said:
I can also remember being caught up in that fiascio but only in the case of sinks and waste supplies. Sink manufacturers even welded on earth srtaps. to assist. Just remembered there was a company that developed pipe fittings that were made with welded of formed terminal fo use under boilers etc.

I posted earlier a publication, published by the IEE, relating to that question. It was dismissed as a myth saying it was written people not understanding the regulations. Farsical was written people not understanding the regulations it was written by the same people who bl00dy wrote the things!

As few posts ago details of requirements if consumers wishing to have a combined neutral earth. Despite that say they are wrong. Who is more qualified a DIY forum or all the technical expertese of the network providers and the IEE. No challenge in my opinion

Hmph... Drains...
In those properties the soil stack was internal in 4" plastic and boxed in. In the kitchen it went into an iron elbow which finished about level with the floor then out through the wall below ground level where it changed into clay and yes it had to be bonded.

Personally I always agreed with bonding SS sinks, having received a tingle.

ban-all-sheds · 20 Oct 2018

333rocky333 said:
547-02-02 in 16th ed and 544.1.2 in 17th ed

The opening words in those are:

"The main equipotential bonding connection".

MEB is only connected to extraneous-conductive-parts, which is not the same as connecting it to any gas or water etc pipes you can find.

If the "gas, water or other service" is not an e-c-p, then nothing after word #6 in that regulation needs to be read, as it does not apply.

ban-all-sheds · 20 Oct 2018

AlanE said:
I think that takes care of why I believe internal pipework needs bonding.

Tell me, everyone except Alan:

Do any of you still believe that he is ever going to understand?

Do any of you still believe that all you need to do is to keep on and on trying to explain it to him?

333rocky333 · 20 Oct 2018

ban-all-sheds said:
The opening words in those are:

"The main equipotential bonding connection".

MEB is only connected to extraneous-conductive-parts, which is not the same as connecting it to any gas or water etc pipes you can find.

If the "gas, water or other service" is not an e-c-p, then nothing after word #6 in that regulation needs to be read, as it does not apply.

so what is this connection that the second half of the reg refers to after the insulating section , if as you rightly say that bit is not extraneous.

ban-all-sheds · 20 Oct 2018

Given what I said above, this is not an attempt to get you to understand, just a clarification for any future readers of how lacking in understanding you are:

AlanE said:
Copy of the specifications requires when requesting the use of combined neutral earth earthing terminal.
Note where it says:
Equipotential bonding is required between the earth conductor and the following extraneous conductive parts:
* Water installation pipes
* Gas installation pipes
* Other installations pipework and ducting
* Central heating and air condition systems
* Exposed metallic structural parts of the building

Note where it says:
Equipotential bonding is required between the earth conductor and the following:
* Extraneous-conductive water installation pipes, not all water installation pipes.
* Extraneous-conductive gas installation pipes, not all gas installation pipes.
* Extraneous-conductive other installations pipework and ducting, not all other installations pipework and ducting.
* Extraneous-conductive central heating and air condition systems, not all central heating and air condition systems.
* Extraneous-conductive exposed metallic structural parts of the building, not all exposed metallic structural parts of the building.

ban-all-sheds · 20 Oct 2018

SUNRAY said:
From about '73 to '77 I did a lot of new build work and I can assure everyone that the inspectors would check the resistance to earth of every single metal window and door handle and a random sample of hinges. They checked that all metal services entering a room were bonded, including the radiator. Without it the supply would not be connected.

As I recall, the regs implied something like 'all exposed metal work' and it was far too easy to interpret it far and away above it's intent. I'm totally convinced some inspectors, or their companies!, took it to ridiculous extremes but there was no power without conforming .

1) There has never been a shortage of idiots meddling with things outwith their comprehension.

2) There has never been a shortage of people too disgraceful to challenge the idiots and deliver to them the procedural equivalent of repeated punches in the face until they go away and stop being idiots meddling with things outwith their comprehension.

ban-all-sheds · 20 Oct 2018

AlanE said:
At least an RGI, if they find an immediatly dangerous situation, is required to seek the responsible persons permission to cap off the faulty/dangerous situation. Yes they have the option to say no. If this is the case they normally change their minds when told that they risk a good chance of loosing their entire gas supply if they continue to decline.

RGI is duty bound to notify gas transporter who will then arrange for engineer to attend, normally within half hour to an hour. Their normal action, as it reduces risk of confrontation, is to simply isolate supply at meter position and go. Affectionatly known as TOFO's.

Leaving hapless consumers at the mercy of idiots meddling with things outwith their comprehension.

ban-all-sheds · 20 Oct 2018

Clicking this now - life is too short.

AlanE · 21 Oct 2018

Ok I conceed I am wrong the whole world, same equipotential bonding requirements apply around the world, is wrong the people (well 3 of them on here are totally correct)

Their executive decision that the concept of bonding everything was a myth (well apart from those that have confirmed being involved with the fiasco at the time) they claim the myth was in fact generated by people who failed to understand the regulations even with those documents that were written by the self same people that were responsible for the regs.

Bonding of internal gas piping is also wrong in their eyes and I conceed they are right. Fact it is a prerequsite of every electricity supply company that before permission is given to use their CNE earthing terminal signed written confirmation needs to be given that the internal gas installation bonding is REQUIRED in accordance to their own diagrams.

End of confession.

I also suggest these same, self confessed DIYers, persons be co-opted as technical advisors so the world can be made a safer and more consistant place, at least in their eyes.

JohnW2 · 21 Oct 2018

Despite the fact that it can (and has been) correctly argued that if the totality of the relevant regs in BS7671 are read together, then what they are requiring in terms of main bonding is actually correct in terms of what is electrically required (and 'safe'), it worries me that those regs have clearly written in a way which has resulted in substantial numbers of people (possibly even a majority) interpreting them as meaning that they should do things things which, under certain (admittedly fairly rare) circuimstances could put the occupants of the property at risk.

It's all very well saying that if the regs are read fully and correctly, with thought and intelligence, they are 'correct', but if those regs are written in a manner such that a substantial (or high) proportion of people are interpreting them incorrectly, that surely means that the regs are not, in practice, proving to be satisfactory?

Kind Regards, John

diynot

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.

Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

18th 544.1.2

Similar threads