Outside Lighting: Possible to have PIR + Timer + Switch

RichA · 27 Oct 2018

Hi, I am looking for options for wiring and am keen to have options for my outside lights.

Ideally, 3 linked outside lights would be activated by anyone of:

Switch by front door
Timer located by side door
Security PIR

Is this feasible? How would it be wired?

mattylad · 27 Oct 2018

Yes it's feasible.

Do you want any of them to turn it on and any of the others to turn it off, or do you want the one that turned it on to turn it off?

You could simply have all 3 switch the supply to the lights, however bear in mind that if you turn it on at the front door, you will have to go to the front door to turn it off.
Or get them all wired like a 3 way lighting system (see the wiki) so you can turn them on/off from any point.
https://www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:Intermediate

This depends upon what you have available in each switch (i.e. if the pir has a dpdt relay) or you may need to have the pir power a dpdt relay.

Think about how you want it to work though.
When the timer is in "on time" do you want the lights on during this time or to come on by the pir during this time?
Do you want the pir to turn them on at any time?
Do you want the switch by the door to override them all?

Think hard about how you want it to operate - then let us know.

flameport · 27 Oct 2018

Yes it's possible - but how do you envisage these three devices being used together - given that:

1. a switch is on/off, and very likely to be left in one of those positions
2. timers switch things on and off at times previously determined
3. PIRs switch lights on for a short duration in the event movement is detected.

RichA · 27 Oct 2018

Thanks. Good questions! I think I want them to separately switch supply to the lights (I don't mind needing to return to the front door).

Guess I may want an override somewhere otherwise I wouldn't be able to stop the lights being activated by the PIR should I not want them to light up for some reason.

This is how I imagine it working. Lights are on

In the early evening (using timer), or
At other times via switch, or
When PIR detects movement (security)

flameport · 27 Oct 2018

RichA said:
In the early evening (using timer),

That won't work, since the time for 'early evening' is different for each week of the year.

An override switch as you have described would need to be a 3 position one - on, off, auto. Very likely to be accidentally left in the wrong position so the other devices do not work.

Generally lights are controlled in one of these ways:

1. Switched on and off using a normal switch.
2. Switched on at dusk and off at dawn using a light sensor. Some might have a timer as part of that to switch off say at midnight, but those cost rather more and given the tiny cost of operating LED lights, the savings are effectively zero.
3. Switched on when movement is detected via a PIR or microwave sensor, the majority of which also include a light sensor so they only operate when it's dark.

Timers are a bust, unless you want one of the very expensive types which compensate for the different sunrise and sunset times throughout the year - and a light sensor is alsmost always a far cheaper and easier solution to that.

Lights don't improve security either. They just allow criminals to see what they are doing more easily.

RichA · 27 Oct 2018

I was anticipating adjusting the timer, say, once a month. I would ideally like the lights to be on from dusk(ish) until 9pm. And then later if desired/activated.

(I guess I could put a dusk/dawn in series with the timer).

333rocky333 · 28 Oct 2018

Sangamo do a digital din rail mount timer that tracks the sun and you can set early off as well

SUNRAY · 28 Oct 2018

I've got a bit lost here.
Do you want a time switch, where you set the times for it to go on and off or a timer where you push a button for it to run for a predetermined period of time?

RichA · 28 Oct 2018

A timer rather than a push button. Would like the lights on when kids come back from school, etc. But don’t need/want them
On all night.

Would one of these work?
http://www.timeguard.com/products/light/automatic-light-switches

chris1982 · 28 Oct 2018

My parents got a setup with a wall switch and PIR. I don't know how it's wired but the PIR (German I think) has a special function control by the standard wall light switch:
Switch on= light comes on when PIR detected motion.
Switch off= no light
Switching on, off, on within a few seconds= light permanently on.

(I remember the electrican trying to get this to work with a 2way switch but declaring after 3 hours of trying that this won't work, so this might not be compatible with your timer idea)

DetlefSchmitz · 28 Oct 2018

For what it's worth I use one of these astro timers https://uk.farnell.com/finder/12-81-8-230-0000/astro-time-switch-digital-spdt/dp/2409261 . I've set it to go on at dusk and off at midnight.

sweeneyuk · 10 Apr 2023

mattylad said:
Yes it's feasible.

Do you want any of them to turn it on and any of the others to turn it off, or do you want the one that turned it on to turn it off?

You could simply have all 3 switch the supply to the lights, however bear in mind that if you turn it on at the front door, you will have to go to the front door to turn it off.
Or get them all wired like a 3 way lighting system (see the wiki) so you can turn them on/off from any point.
https://www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:Intermediate

This depends upon what you have available in each switch (i.e. if the pir has a dpdt relay) or you may need to have the pir power a dpdt relay.

Think about how you want it to work though.
When the timer is in "on time" do you want the lights on during this time or to come on by the pir during this time?
Do you want the pir to turn them on at any time?
Do you want the switch by the door to override them all?

Think hard about how you want it to operate - then let us know.

Hello, I know this is an old thread but was interested in how you would’ve solved this? outside lights on a timer up to a set time then on a pir throughout night?

Assuming PIR has lux sensor they’ll be off in day. Need them on up to about 2300 but after this time only activated by PIR?

thanks

ericmark · 10 Apr 2023

Today with Smart stuff you can integrate loads, the problem is selecting the product, I am not using a PIR, but do use times and switches.

Using smart bulbs some will turn on a dusk and off at fixed time, then on at fixed time and off at dawn.

Other will slowly dim out, so not plunged into darkness, but some things done by app, and some by the bulb, so hard to work out what will do what.

They can have remote controls, and the remote can be a PIR.

And in the main, turn off and back on and it auto turns on.

I have a zigbee relay, and some bulbs are zigbee, I also have wiz, and TCP, and Energenie smart switches plus Google home and Nest Mini's and never sure if the relay, hub, app, or Nest is doing as asked, or behaving like a mischievous little boy.

And this is the problem, it works, but often not a clue why.

EFLImpudence · 10 Apr 2023

OR:

sweeneyuk said:
Hello, I know this is an old thread but was interested in how you would’ve solved this? outside lights on a timer up to a set time then on a pir throughout night?

Assuming PIR has lux sensor they’ll be off in day. Need them on up to about 2300 but after this time only activated by PIR?

You simply have a standard PIR light system and then add an override with any old timer - and also a switch if you want.

FrodoOne · 11 Apr 2023

A device such as https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/STNM3000B.html (and there are others) is better than a "timer", since it can be set for a requisite "ON" time and adjusts itself for the changes in the length of day and night - although it does not allow for the hour of nominal time difference with "Summer Time"

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Outside Lighting: Possible to have PIR + Timer + Switch

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