Enlarge Fireplace No New Lintel - Opinions Please

BathDIY · 20 Nov 2018

Hello,

I have recently had a stove installed by a HETAS approved installer.

I was concerned about the finish, which has led me to question the safety of the work. I have now discovered that it is unsafe, HETAS have said we cannot use the stove.

I am talking to Citizens Advice and compiling a letter of complaint RE the work, could do with some insight RE the following:

They did not fit a new lintel as part of the works. This despite me discussing this with the installer twice before the installation. They did enlarge the opening significantly and at the time of installation told me that a lintel was not required as the existing structure was in place to support the opening.

I am hoping that you can offer comment on the lack of new lintel, is this a planning infraction, poor practice, or is it acceptable if there is an existing old lintel in place?

Also if the existing lintel is OK in principle, how could I check to make sure that its sound?

Cheers,

Justin

mrrusty · 21 Nov 2018

Just because they enlarged the opening without fitting a new lintel doesn't necessarily mean it is unsafe. In many cases fireplaces originally had much larger openings for e.g. ranges. These were often a brick arch with an arched steel brace. Later on they are often bricked up to a smaller opening for domestic fireplaces. Opening up such an opening would not require a new lintel as the original support would still be in place.

BathDIY · 22 Nov 2018

@mrrusty Thanks for letting me know. What do I need to look for to ascertain if an old lintel is in place?

The plaster was not removed from the wall (see attached). When I removed the paper before instal I spotted a hairline crack in the plaster which runs down from the ceiling. This could well mean nothing the house is 50 years old.

During install I ran my hands over the structure above the cement board it sloped upwards. I assumed that this was part of the structure of the flu and that the lintel was above it.

oldbutnotdead · 22 Nov 2018

Hard to tell with that top cement board and the plaster in place- it is possible that the installer peered up the chimney before it was fitted and could see a brick arch or lintel further up. Given the rest of the job it is possible they didn't do any of that......since you're in dispute with the installer you might want to leave it alone until any independent inspections have been carried out. Even if there is no lintel at all in there on that span it is unlikely to collapse- if anything did move it would be one brick or 2 so you can safely leave it until inspected

BathDIY · 22 Nov 2018

@oldbutnotdead thanks for the reassurance.

Have e-mailed building control, days later and no response as yet, should I just cut to the chase and book an inspection?

Or is there a better way to collect evidence?

oldbutnotdead · 22 Nov 2018

Probably better to get back on to HETAS and find out what (if any) complaints resolution process they have- I don't know whether HETAS 'back' the jobs of registered installers to any realistic extent (probably not) or whether they have a register of independent experts who you could call on to come and check the job out (more feasable). Building Control are unlikely to have anyone on staff who is fully conversant with all the regs regarding solid fuel appliances (though you may get lucky). End of the day you need the thing inspected and a written report prepared by someone competent in the field (this will probably cost you) - at that time it would be appropriate to remove the cement boards and see what is holding the front of the chimney up.
If the results of that inspection are as you suspect (it's a massive bodge & needs redoing) then your next step is written complaint to the original installer - if they refuse to engage then small claims court.

BathDIY · 25 Nov 2018

Thanks for your help so far.

Have complained to HETAS they have told me that lintels fall under building works that do not fall under HETAS remit. They suggest that I discuss the concerns with the local building control office.

HETAS may conduct a site visit (with the installer present). It sounds a bit like the lintel would not form part of the inspection.

It may well be that there is a structure above the opening, although I also wonder if it's damaged. The installer told me that he would remove the plaster to insert oak beam above the opening, he hasn't done this. I wonder if this would have revealed a cracked lintel, no lintel, or other issues.

I don't know if this helps or is significant but I do notice cracks, which were evident prior to the install:

One runs down the plaster from the ceiling to the midpoint of the opening (not into the new plaster as yet). Nearer the opening I can get my fingernail in the crack.
Crossing this 2 other cracks run across the top of the opening beyond the width of the chamber, the plaster in this area is loose (hollow sounding when I tap it).

If I do get a building control officer round I'm guessing that they won't want to dismantle anything, or perhaps you know of ways around this?

So am a bit stuck, any ideas of how I can get someone to inspect just the lintel part of this project?

mrrusty · 25 Nov 2018

methinks you are worrying about a lintel too much. If that plaster is sounding hollow it's going to have to come off anyway. Why not just drop the plaster off the breast and see what you have. The lintel/arch is only holding up a few courses of bricks anyway - not the whole chimney! The forces will be corballed out into the sides of the chimney breast.

oldbutnotdead · 25 Nov 2018

mrrusty said:
methinks you are worrying about a lintel too much. If that plaster is sounding hollow it's going to have to come off anyway. Why not just drop the plaster off the breast and see what you have. The lintel/arch is only holding up a few courses of bricks anyway - not the whole chimney! The forces will be corballed out into the sides of the chimney breast.

What he said. Plus from an aesthetic point of view you presumably wanted a nice oak timber framing the top of your fireplace and you haven't got that- not sure how much fire resistance you'd need between the woodburner and the timber but that's up to HETAS/building regs.
Your cracks as described aren't alarming but they do point towards not much supporting the front face of the chimney- knocking off the plaster will be the easiest way of seeing what is what, if HETAS are washing their hands of that part of the job then your existing photographs (might want to do some new ones with evidence of date on them- todays newspaper

) will adequately show how the structure was left by the installer.
One note- knock the plaster off carefully, if the brickwork is lime mortar then it'll be very loose (from years of heat from the fireplace)

lt8480 · 26 Nov 2018

HETAS are somewhat correct, in that they wouldn't get involved in disputes on non-HETAS work such lintels, as ultimately it is not what they cover. An approved scheme only covers certain work, not all the work that they do.

But, if you proved the installer did the lintel and it was wrong, HETAS would probably then be interested to know they have a dodgy installer doing associated works improperly.

BathDIY · 26 Nov 2018

Thanks, everyone, oh yes I am a worrier

mrrusty said:
methinks you are worrying about a lintel too much. If that plaster is sounding hollow it's going to have to come off anyway. Why not just drop the plaster off the breast and see what you have. The lintel/arch is only holding up a few courses of bricks anyway - not the whole chimney! The forces will be corballed out into the sides of the chimney breast.

Will do, I don't think it will take much to remove the plaster, it needs to be done anyway as I want the beam plastered in. Will sort this when I get home.

lt8480 said:
But, if you proved the installer did the lintel and it was wrong, HETAS would probably then be interested to know they have a dodgy installer doing associated works improperly.

No new lintel was added, the installer said it wasn't required as the structure in place already (despite me talking to him about new lintel during the initial meeting). There may be a structure in place but it's interesting that he suddenly didn't knock plaster off so that the beam could be plastered around. Why not? that's what I'm questioning now, is the structure non-existent or compromised.

Ian H · 26 Nov 2018

BathDIY said:
There may be a structure in place but it's interesting that he suddenly didn't knock plaster off so that the beam could be plastered around. Why not?

Because he knew the lot would come off? Did he price to fit a new lintel and plaster that whole section then knock that bit off your final bill?

geraldthehamster · 27 Nov 2018

not sure how much fire resistance you'd need between the woodburner and the timber but that's up to HETAS/building regs.

In the absence of a barrier as specified in Part J, the distance between flue and combustible timber should be at least three times the diameter of the flue. This is why timber beams are often set into the wall some inches above the opening, or are not timber at all, but composites.

BathDIY · 28 Nov 2018

Ian H said:
Because he knew the lot would come off? Did he price to fit a new lintel and plaster that whole section then knock that bit off your final bill?

No, it's not on the invoice, we had conversations like:

QUESTION: Will you fit a steel or concrete lintel ANSWER: We will see when we get in there.

geraldthehamster said:
In the absence of a barrier as specified in Part J, the distance between flue and combustible timber should be at least three times the diameter of the flue. This is why timber beams are often set into the wall some inches above the opening, or are not timber at all, but composites.

Thanks, I will bear that in mind, when you say combustible timber would you in this case measure from the top of the stove itself.

Have gently prised off some plaster and the crack continues through what I guess must be the lintel, see attached.

Have not taken too much off as we have to live with this until it's fixed/inspected whatever.

I would like to think it's best practice to replace something like this?

oldbutnotdead · 28 Nov 2018

Your crack in the plaster- given what you said earlier about it all sounding hollow etc then now is the time (while the place is a mess anyway) to knock it all off and find out exactly what's under there. If you weren't doing all the work anyway you could fill & paint it (or paper, whatever floats your boat tho paper above that woodburner might not work out so well)- not a panic-worthy crack that

.

Your oak beam- I'm not an expert but geraldthehamster's answer says clearance from flue. If your new timber has an exposed timber face inside the chimney then it needs to be at least 3 times the flue diameter away from the flue (so 5" flue = 15" clearance). Unless that chimney is massive you're not going to achieve that- plan B would be a non-inflammable (concrete or steel) lintel with an oak slip glued on the front, plan C would be clad the inside-chimney face of the timber with some proper thermal board

diynot

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.

Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

Enlarge Fireplace No New Lintel - Opinions Please

BathDIY

mrrusty

BathDIY

Attachments

oldbutnotdead

BathDIY

oldbutnotdead

BathDIY

mrrusty

oldbutnotdead

lt8480

BathDIY

Ian H

geraldthehamster

BathDIY

Attachments

oldbutnotdead

DIYnot Local

Similar threads