Trim Routers

morpheus83uk said:

Does the Makita have a direct cordless replacement with the LED light?

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Yes. That's the DRT50 I mentioned in a previous post. Nice bit of kit and no cord to get in the way, either, which may well be advantageous in freehand work

morpheus83uk said:

Also would there be any power difference between corded and cordless

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big-all said:

corded tend to be far more powerful than any battery tool but brushless are now approaching the 50% range on 18v and 75-100% on 36-54v tools but at a cost

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In point of fact a 1/4in trim router with a small collet just won't be useable with large diameter or long cutters - that's just begging for the cutter to pull-out or slip - so for the small cuts you generally expect to make with this class of router, stuff like hinge recesses, edge round-overs, small rebates, small chamfers et al, there really is little or no discernable difference in power in real terms (that based on about 9 months usage of a DRT50 following a couple of years using an RT0700 and a Katsu - can't say about other manufacturers as I don't have the experience with their products). The Makita cordless tool also uses all the same bases, fences, etc as my RT0700 corded tool and shares the same batteries as my Makita cordless kit. That means in my own case it's a win-win situation. The only area I agree with B-A is that there is a cost penalty to going cordless, especially if you aren't already committed to a compatible battery system

big-all said:

i have a brushless dewalt dcd996 hammer drill its 870w on full power at 18v thats 5 mins on a 4ah battery off course you will be on perhaps 10-20 power most off the time so last for an hour or so

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But that doesn't reflect the sort of usage you should put a trim router to, if only because prolonged usage will make the motor run pretty hot - and your hand is wrapped around that hot piece of aluminium which is the motor body. TBH if you want to use a router for 30 minutes or continuously you really need to be looking at a larger heavier tool than a rim router, such as a deWalt DW621 or a Bosch GOF900CE or a Festool OF1000e, all of which are big enough to be able o dissipate the heat a lot better

morpheus83uk said:

I have had a look at infinity and the others and the infinity and CMT seem to be the same price. Which is the better quality?

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There really isn't much in it. For me, in trade use, I tend to go with Wealden Tool first (assuming they have an appropriate cutter available) simply because they've almost always managed a next day delivery, their range is good and their quality is more than good enough for trade use in shop/bar/restaurant fit-out work

yes just pointing out for very heavy duty mains is better but lighter use cordless much easier
and pointing out a router on heavy duty will be more hungry on batteries as i expect the new dewalt to have the same 870w motor or maybe bigger you would need perhaps 15- 20ah off batteries for loads off heavy routing up towards the maximum capacity or perhaps 8-15 ah for a 30% up and 70% down time or even a 10% up 90% downtime on hinge duty would work with a 4ah battery all day but pointing out you need the expectations to be in line with reality at least a bit
i cut loads off 7x7mm rebates with the ryobi 18v and will do perhaps 2-3m per ah so a 4ah may do 8-12 possibly more but given as a rough guide as i seldom do more than 12-14m off rebates at a time
i am happy if someone wants to know how many metres at a 7x7mm rebate a 4ah ryobi battery will cut will go and do it tomorrow lol but hate wasting timber unless useful lol
would also do it with the bosch 10.8/12 and 4ah iff someone asked me

Thank you.

It sounds like cordless has it's advantages however as I don't own any Makita gear currently I would need to get the batteries and charger for additional costs.

Having a quick look around some do include them with the kit but are like £500+ I haven't yet worked out If it's even cheaper or feesable to go with cordless and to get the router and batteries and charger separate.

What better do you use with your Makita and how long does it run for before charging is required and under what circumstances? I also presume the machine will gradually slow down and then stop but the cuts won't be affected? I am trying to work out if it's feesableto get the cordless for the flexibility without the cord and how long it will run for so I have an idea of how often I would need to swap the batteries.

I will have a look and see I think but corded maybe the way forward.

Thanks

James

cordless will never be cheaper just much easier to use
the naked machine will be a similar price to the corded one

Yes they are similar in price. I have also noticed that the ones with the additional bases are different too. The cordless one having all the bases and a hard case and the corded one having a soft bag and no offset base. I don't know why the bag difference and attachment difference but there is only £40 difference to upgrade. Where the offset base alone I have seen for £70. I mean granted I will probably never need it but just an observation.

As B-A says, cordless will never be cheaper than corded. Run time isn't an issue as I always have a spare battery in the charger, but I get more than enough usage out of a 5Ah battery for the other one to charge-up whilst I'm working (about 45 minutes). Bear in mind, though, that it isn't 45 minutes continuous use - I'd challenge anyone to hang onto a trimmer for that length of time without breaks (you simply don't work that way).

In terms of the bases, I'd forget the offset base for a start - it's highly specialised and if you can't identify an immediate use for it, then you probably don't have one (and as likely as not you'll never have one). I bought one because I do re-lamination on some refurbs and there is a need for it from time to time. In fact I've used the offset base once in 2 years - and that was for re-lamination of counter tops in-situ which is a bit of a niche requirement, I'd say. The fixed base and the plunger are going to be the most useful for most people, and the tilting base is all very well, but every time I've used mine (probably 3 times in 2 years, and I could have achieved the same results in a different way) it has required extra sub-bases to be created to achieve what I needed to do (it is very tippy unless you make-up an extended sub-base) - so another accessory which probably won't be much use to the vast majority of people. The hard case is probably most of interest to a tradesman who needs to protect his kit both on site and during transit - for a home user I don't see it as a "must have"

Were I a DIYer I have to say that I'd be leaning more towards the Katsu which has to be a bargain at under £50, and then any extra cash could go on stuff like plunge base, cutters, clamps, dust mask, etc

Thanks. I am just curious really as to how long they run for. I have read that people have been using them all day and the battery hasent drained. But I get your point as to not using it continuously.

And from what you have said if I understand it correctly you are getting roughly 45 minutes worth of use out of each charge in the router?

Would a 6Amp battery provide more running power? If so roughly how much?

Thanks

James

just to clarify i wasn't saying you need 15-20 ah as in 3 or 4x5ah batteries just that amount off fuel required so indeed 2x4ah or 2x5ah would do the same job as long as you have enough on charge a 5ah dewalt takes about 75 mins plus 10 mins to cool down so a battery on charge and one in use would work in most situation with a third on the odd occasion a cup off tea and biscuit wont fill the time to fully charged

as an aside
li-ions do not suffer from part charging so you can take the part charged off and use whilst the flat one is charging

morpheus83uk said:

Thanks. I am just curious really as to how long they run for. I have read that people have been using them all day and the battery hasent drained.

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Not in my experience. I can't really give you a proper run time on them, but it isn't all day

morpheus83uk said:

And from what you have said if I understand it correctly you are getting roughly 45 minutes worth of use out of each charge in the router

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No. What I was trying to communicate is that it takes about 45 minutes to charge a 5Ah battery on the fast charger and that you'll get more than that out of a battery. So the other way around

morpheus83uk said:

Would a 6Amp battery provide more running power? If so roughly how much?

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It won't provide any more power - 3Ah, 4Ah and 5Ah all seem to give the same amount of power as each other on this tool - the difference is in the run-time. A 6Ah will give you 120% of the run time of a 5Ah battery - the difference is that a 5Ah battery will cost just under £60 whereas a 6Ah costs around £110. You really need to want that extra 20% run time very badly to afford that sort of difference in price per amp

BTW, you raised a point earlier about the speed running down as the battery discharges - well, yes it does, but only really noticeably towards the end of the battery charge (last 1/3 or less) and you can compensate for this a bit by turning the speed control up a touch because you probably won't want to run at full speed (30,000rpm) all the time. I tend to run at about 24,000rpm for many bits - less vibration, less wear and tear on the bearings, less chance of scorching or bearing failure when using small diameter bearing guided bits.

big-all said:

...a 5ah dewalt takes about 75 mins (to charge) plus 10 mins to cool down so a battery on charge and one in use would work in most situation with a third on the odd occasion a cup off tea and biscuit wont fill the time to fully charged

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Saying that makes me appreciate the fast charge of the Makita - 45 minutes as opposed to your 85 minutes, that's some difference! At work I don't often have the time to have a sit don and a cup of tea whilst I wait for the battery to finish charging, nor do I want to have to but=y three batteries to keep a tool going when two will do

you can actually charge more rapidly but only the 6/9/12and new 15ah flexvolt 18/54 batts
and the 10 mins or there about will be more important on a makita as its the temperature sensors prevent the charging or use off a hot battery
for information dewalt quote exactly 15 mins per amp 60/75/90[4/5/6ah]
which i think will be a bit inaccurate as the charge rate tends to be on a curve rather than on a strait line
think i will flatten a 4/5/6 ah next week and experiment on charge times

Ahh thanks for the clarification. Buts it's a decent run time either way whatever it is?

I presume you run yours on speed 3 or 4 then with the 24,000rpm?

If I do opt for the cordless I will be looking at the fast charger as I think they make more sense. What is the model for the fast charger so i can have a look?

morpheus83uk said:

I presume you run yours on speed 3 or 4 then with the 24,000rpm?

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Yes

morpheus83uk said:

What is the model for the fast charger so i can have a look?

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DC18RA (1-battery), DC18RD (2-battery)

big-all said:

and the 10 mins or there about will be more important on a makita as its the temperature sensors prevent the charging or use off a hot battery

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From site experience, no it isn't. I've heated up batteries on the grinder, the recip saw and on the SDS (with 16mm or larger drill bits), but NOT on the trimmer (but then it really isn't doing as much work). Even in heavy site use I rarely have to cool down a battery, and often it's because I'm running a battery until it's flat just to get the job finished (pressure of work). As far as the Flexvolt battery goes, they are quite a bit bigger and heavier than a 5Ah Makita or DW battery - and reckon that the extra weight and size would make any trimmer far less easy to use (tippier, top heavy, unbalanced)

As it happens I do have some DW Li-Ion kit (1st fix and 2nd fix guns) and TBH I'm seriously underwhelmed by just how slowly the batteries charge. The Makita system is just far faster.

ok there is no actual time but there is the sensor in all li-ions and chargers to stop iff they overheat/overload and prevent charging if too hot
thats all i am referring to was only throwing 10 mins into the mix to dampen expectations as most will expect far more power virtually for free where as brushless can work everything much harder

I think the point about waiting for batteries to charge is as much to do with what kind of user you are as anything else. For a trade user it is very important and can be business critical to have sufficient batteries of sufficient capacity to keep working without a break. In that respect the slow charging of the standard 18volt DW batteries is a bit of an issue to some of us (forget the FlexVolt for this and many other uses - their physical size creates as many issues as their increased capacity fixes). For a hobbyist the issues of charge and run time are never going to be anywhere near as critical, partly because I'm pretty sure there will be relatively few occasions when a hobbyist will need to keep a tool going for hours on end to get a job finished (to a deadline)

JobAndKnock said:

I think the point about waiting for batteries to charge is as much to do with what kind of user you are as anything else. For a trade user it is very important and can be business critical to have sufficient batteries of sufficient capacity to keep working without a break. In that respect the slow charging of the standard 18volt DW batteries is a bit of an issue to some of us (forget the FlexVolt for this and many other uses - their physical size creates as many issues as their increased capacity fixes). For a hobbyist the issues of charge and run time are never going to be anywhere near as critical, partly because I'm pretty sure there will be relatively few occasions when a hobbyist will need to keep a tool going for hours on end to get a job finished (to a deadline)

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Haha, depends if it's going dark and for unforseen reasons (read: daft cock up) you've had to flip the power off