How to Engage a Builder

Firstly, thanks for the advice some time ago (seems ages) regarding finding an architect for an extension to our bungalow and being told to get an architectural technician. I did that and my plans went in to the planning black hole on Monday. I've no idea when they'll pop out the other side although the AT reckons 12-13 weeks if we're lucky.

So, as I have a set of drawings and a list of additional stuff we want doing to the bungalow. I've asked around the neighbours to recommend a builder and have half a dozen phone numbers. My big problem is the bungalow is at least a 2 1/2 hour drive from me and I work M-F although I do have some flexibility to get out of work to go meet builders on site in the week.

So to today's questions, how should I best approach my half a dozen builders to engage them to estimate for the work? I don't really want to make 6 5hr round trips for 6 1hr site meetings but I'm not sure emailing a set of drawings, sketches and a written list of works is the best way either?

And if someone rings you up to estimate a job, what information do you need?

I work in corporate IT sales albeit responding to requests for pricing, not ordering, and we get requests that range from minute detail of requirements, which makes adding value hard, to such vague requirements it makes specifying anything likely to work as impossible so I'm keen not to put my "suppliers" in that position because I know it's crap. There's a substantial amount of work to be done and I hope to have a good rapport with the eventual contractor. As I won't be around to check on progress (swings and roundabouts there I suspect) I want to get it right.

For starters you won't get decent quotes based on Planning drawings, they lack construction details that the builder needs to calculate his price. A minimum would be a full set of Building Regulations drawings and if you are managing the project from a distance possibly a detailed specification/schedule of works. Talk to your AT, he might advise to start the Building Regulations drawings before you get Planning Permission (depending on likelihood of securing planning permission) to speed things up and he should be able to give you a fee quote for preparing the drawings and a detailed specification.

However, if any of these builders are any good they will already have work lined up for the next 6 to 12 months so you need to start talking to them now. By all means send them copies of the Planning drawings and tell them your planned start date and see if they are interested and available. That should start to whittle the list down to 2 or 3 builders.

wessex101 said:

For starters you won't get decent quotes based on Planning drawings, they lack construction details that the builder needs to calculate his price.

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That makes sense.

wessex101 said:

A minimum would be a full set of Building Regulations drawings

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These are included in the fixed price piece the AT is doing so she'll be providing those. Apparently Hereford planners are very slow though. There's nothing contentious in the drawings but you just know they'll come up with something to show they're earning their money.

wessex101 said:

If you are managing the project from a distance possibly a detailed specification/schedule of works.

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Already on with that now. I've taken the stuff that's subject to PP and the other bits that aren't, all of which I've discussed with the AT to ensure we're not asking for something that would impinge on the PP, and listed it out as Electrical, Plumbing, Internal and External stuff, mainly so I can keep a track of what I'm asking for.

wessex101 said:

However, if any of these builders are any good they will already have work lined up for the next 6 to 12 months so you need to start talking to them now. By all means send them copies of the Planning drawings and tell them your planned start date and see if they are interested and available. That should start to whittle the list down to 2 or 3 builders.

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This is as I expect and I'd be wary of anyone who said they could start next Monday. That would be akin to someone rocking up with some "spare" tarmac left over from a job they were doing.
As we're not in a huge rush to move and it's costing not a lot to have empty, we're really flexible on start and end dates but obviously want to get on with it. Stuff rarely gets cheaper with time. I also don't expect anything other than an experienced finger in the air price at this stage just to get my head around how I fund it all as I have a bunch of options but as I've said, I want this to be done right for us and for the builder.

Will you be at the bungalow when work starts?

If not, you will need to be awfully careful engaging the right builder.

Personally I would try and find a builder that is very local to the project and has other projects you can see and maybe speak to the customer.

In your situation you need a very trustworthy builder....if you arent going to be around.

If you can engage them to just do a shell, you will get back prices more easily and builders like a nice simple job they can do quickly with a clear finish point.

the more finsishing works is specified the more muddled it gets.

In this case, it seems that you would be better off with not only a full set of building regulation drawings and specification, but an additional specification document which details the exact works (ie actually spells it out) and specifies what and how it should be done, and has a space for the builder to put a cost against every item of work to build up a total cost for the job.

This will also include details of working hours, provision of labour and such like and will be in the form of a tender document which you tell the builder what to do, rather than the builder giving you quotes where he tells you what he wants to do.

Notch7 said:

Will you be at the bungalow when work starts?

If not, you will need to be awfully careful engaging the right builder.

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Nope. I'll be 135 miles and 2.5 hours away. This is, I appreciate, far from ideal for this reason.

Notch7 said:

Personally I would try and find a builder that is very local to the project and has other projects you can see and maybe speak to the customer.

In your situation you need a very trustworthy builder....if you arent going to be around.

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I've deliberately limited my search to asking locals who've had work done so I can go and look at it and speak to them.

Notch7 said:

If you can engage them to just do a shell, you will get back prices more easily and builders like a nice simple job they can do quickly with a clear finish point.

the more finsishing works is specified the more muddled it gets.

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This doesn't help me. It's hard enough finding a builder so far from home, let alone finding and project managing plasterers, plumbers, kitchen fitters, sparkies, etc. What I really need is a project manager within the building trade with a big book of phone numbers who charges 7/6 a week.

^woody^ said:

In this case, it seems that you would be better off with not only a full set of building regulation drawings and specification, but an additional specification document which details the exact works (ie actually spells it out) and specifies what and how it should be done, and has a space for the builder to put a cost against every item of work to build up a total cost for the job.

This will also include details of working hours, provision of labour and such like and will be in the form of a tender document which you tell the builder what to do, rather than the builder giving you quotes where he tells you what he wants to do.

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I can write a tender document (I work with those) in conjunction with the AT. To be honest, I don't care how much any of the items cost. We aren't after anything we'd consider optional (hot tub say, or conservatory). Also, does telling them the "how" help? If it says "dry line the former garage with Xmm plasterboard", do I need to care how it's done particularly? Surely as long as the drawings, specifications and scope of works are complete (my responsibility), it is easier for any builder to have the leeway to use their preferred suppliers, other trades, and project planning to minimise their cost and time, minimise my cost and maximise their profit? It's not like I care two hoots if they rip out the old kitchen first or build the garage first or build the bedroom extension first. All I care about is handing over the keys on day 1. Getting the new keys back on day X with getting the work done to the appropriate standards set out in the technical specs for the price quoted on the bottom of the page.

One advantage for the builder (I've watched Grand Designs a few times) is I won't be there looking over his shoulder saying "I don't like that" or "I don't want it that way". I've seen on GD what that does to project costs. If there's a question, every builder I've ever met has a phone with a camera in they can message me and ask, or ask the AT.

If I was retired and had a caravan I would happily live on site and run the whole shebang myself but realistically I doubt I'd save much, if anything and I also doubt I'd get a better job done. I'm not sure where the 8 dogs would go either.

I agree wholeheartedly though that the scope of works and specifications need to be exact. I can'd complain if I have "new internal doors" down and he puts eggbox doors on, not engineered oak doors. There are also some areas where I'm keen for the builder to bring their experience and knowledge to the table to suggest better or alternative solutions to some of the elements. That will obviously have a bearing on the final tender document.

But you might care of the dry lined plasterboard is stuck up with some 99p tube of silicone from Poundland that will last until the first door slamming, or fixed properly and lasts for as long as the bungalow stays up. And you might care if you are charged for the expensive way and get the cheap way.

And you might care if the job is not being managed, whether the builder works for 6 hours a day or if he stretches the job out to 6 months due to "unforeseens" or unpriced work, and a nice daywork rate to change you.

What often happens in construction is, as soon as a customer is absent, the labour on the job gets re distributed to other jobs that are more urgent. Also true of subbies the builder is using.

Or if the customer is at home, keep a couple of labourers on site, as a 'presence'.

By 'eck, you're a cynical bunch and filling me with confidence.

On the point about the example of dry lining, if I'm not there to watch him, I've still got to wait for it to fall off before getting it done right.

Timescales and unforeseens are easily handled by contract although I suspect a lot of builders would balk at penalty clauses and pricing the job "at risk". I know of a construction firm near here who took on a building job at risk based on two ground samples on the site and ended up pumping several thousand tons of fly ash into the mine workings under the site. The bloke with the drill must have hit the only two solid spots on the site.

Kistelek said:

I don't really want to make 6 5hr round trips for 6 1hr site meetings but I'm not sure emailing a set of drawings, sketches and a written list of works is the best way either?

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Emailing drawings and specifications to builders for quotations is quite normal nowadays. You would want meetings with at least two builders when you have drawn up a short list to discuss their quotations before appointing somebody. Ideally somebody like an architect ( I am not going to mention all the building professionals who can manage contracts ) would deal with all this for you and could manage the contract during construction.

Kistelek said:

To be honest, I don't care how much any of the items cost.

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-I wouldn't tell the builders that

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Kistelek said:

Timescales and unforeseens are easily handled by contract

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They are not.

Under contract, as soon as the scope of the work alters (a variation) then the original completion date becomes invalid. The contract effectively becomes open ended.

Also, you can't have penalty clauses in any contact.

Leofric said:

Emailing drawings and specifications to builders

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If only we could find a way so that they downloaded and printed to scale.

Send paper (to scale) copies in the post to me please.

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^woody^ said:

Under contract, as soon as the scope of the work alters (a variation) then the original completion date becomes invalid. The contract effectively becomes open ended.

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I'm afraid not, the contract completion date is the contract completion date. An extension of time may be awarded by the Client depending on what the variation is and its repercussions. i.e.changing to different bricks, no extension of time unless procuring them causes a problem and even then it would depend of where the work is on the critical path. The construction industry would collapse into chaos if a variation invalidated the contractual completion date and it became open ended