BA22d bulb, is it class II?

ericmark · 3 Apr 2019

With the old tungsten bulb you had to turn off light to change bulb or you would burn yourself, so it did not really matter if any part of bulb did become live, you would not touch it.

However the E27 bulbs may have a long holder so you can't touch the threaded section, but BA22d bulbs often you can see and easy touch the metal casing when removing and inserting bulbs, the holder is normally marked as Class II but not seen the mark on the bulb.

I am sure most are Class II but question is should they be marked as Class II on the bulb? They have three connections and some BA22d holders the outer is brass and clearly earthed so the outer could be expected to be earthed unless bulb marked as Class II.

canduit · 3 Apr 2019

ericmark said:
With the old tungsten bulb you had to turn off light to change bulb or you would burn yourself, so it did not really matter if any part of bulb did become live, you would not touch it.

Unless it was wired by a monkey and the switch was switching the neutral!

ericmark · 3 Apr 2019

Agreed but my point is should we use any appliance without a earth connected if it does not show

sign on it? And I have not seen the sign on light bulbs, not really looked until I saw a post on fitting a light bar from Ikea which was class II and I wondered about the bulb its self.

EFLImpudence · 3 Apr 2019

I suspect bulbs are like plastic switches -

not officially Class II but with no exposed-conductive-parts, there is nothing to earth.

Some ES lamp holders (modern ones?) have a terminal down at the bottom, rather than use the threads, which loses contact as soon as you start to unscrew - as indeed has the centre contact always done.

JohnW2 · 3 Apr 2019

EFLImpudence said:
I suspect bulbs are like plastic switches - not officially Class II but with no exposed-conductive-parts, there is nothing to earth.

Indeed - as I often say there seem to be countless things which are 'not officially Class II', but which certainly can't be Class I, since they have no exposed-c-pcs.

However, I assumed that eric's point was that most B22 bulbs do appear to have an exposed-c-p (a metal 'end cap') - which I suppose makes things a bit less straightforward?

I've actually seen at least one which had a manufacturing defect such that there was a visible 'connection' between one of the connection 'pads' at the end and the metal 'end cap' - such that that cap could become live if the bulb were inserted in the holder one way around.

Kind Regards, John

EFLImpudence · 3 Apr 2019

Yes, I admit I had ES bulbs in mind where the only exposed metal is a live contact.

I suppose one can touch the metal of B22s - but then once the bulb is removed one can stick a finger in the holder.

Just a remnant from different times ?

SimonH2 · 3 Apr 2019

ericmark said:
With the old tungsten bulb you had to turn off light to change bulb or you would burn yourself ...

Not usually. Most of the time the bulb I'd be taking out a dead bulb, so it wouldn't be very hot by the time I'd found a replacement bulb.
But yes, an interesting point - especially now we have other types of bulb.

With the old filament bulbs, there's little chance of an internal fault making the cap live. But as with my LEDs not liking the rain thread, that's no longer the case - having a live cap is a very real possibility.

TBH I generally don't worry about making sure things are switched off - for one thing, in many cases you can't be sure anyway unless you have memorised the combinations of switch positions etc. SWMBO doesn't like watching me do this

I just work on the basis of "don't stick your fingers in the socket" principle

JohnW2 · 3 Apr 2019

EFLImpudence said:
Yes, I admit I had ES bulbs in mind where the only exposed metal is a live contact.

True (provided the holder is wired correctly!). However, eric was (as per title of this thread) specifically talking about B22 ones.

EFLImpudence said:
I suppose one can touch the metal of B22s - but then once the bulb is removed one can stick a finger in the holder.

Again, true - but, if it were anything other than a bulb, I imagine that you would feel that it would not be acceptable to plug anything with exposed metal parts into a B22 holder, wouldn't you?

However, as I implied, eric raised an issue about which I've often asked. The are many things which are not 'officially Class II' but equally cannot be Class I, because there are no exposed-c-ps to earth - so what "are" they?! Probably the 'worst' are things made of 'insulating material' (hence no exposed-c-ps) which clearly does not qualify as 'double insulated' or 'reinforced insulation' - clearly not Class I or II, so are they just 'not allowed' (and, if so, what says that?), or what?

Kind Regards, John

ericmark · 3 Apr 2019

With a mauled right hand which I have to keep warm I always have a glove handy so always wear a glove to change bulb. When working and doing the PAT testing there were some lamp standards with two core flex and no sticker which I was told I was no to allow, I had to fail them even though I knew they were OK.

I also came across some items with the

sticker which were clearly class I example was a rotorbroach

where the drill part was clearly marked as class II but the mag mount was also clearly class I so whole item had to be tested as class I even with the class II sticker.

Although we may realise the item is likely safe, as an electrician can you pass a table lamp marked as class II if fitted with a BA22d bulb not marked as class II and with metal which in some lamps would be earthed?

When the report on Emma Shaw's death was published I looked and thought here by the grace of god go I. I would not have hesitated using my electricians mate to plug in a meter and write down the readings. In the same way if we pass a bulb which has 3 connections one which would be earthed in some bulb holders without an earth connection and it transpires that bulb is faulty and the outer becomes live, would the court blame us?

EFLImpudence · 3 Apr 2019

JohnW2 said:
but, if it were anything other than a bulb, I imagine that you would feel that it would not be acceptable to plug anything with exposed metal parts into a B22 holder, wouldn't you?

I suppose - but if it had a big glass handle?

What did you have in mind - an iron?

However, as I implied, eric raised an issue about which I've often asked. The are many things which are not 'officially Class II' but equally cannot be Class I, because there are no exposed-c-ps to earth - so what "are" they?! Probably the 'worst' are things made of 'insulating material' (hence no exposed-c-ps) which clearly does not qualify as 'double insulated' or 'reinforced insulation' - clearly not Class I or II, so are they just 'not allowed' (and, if so, what says that?), or what?

I still don't know the answer.

I presume you meant "just 'allowed'"?

JohnW2 · 3 Apr 2019

EFLImpudence said:
I suppose - but if it had a big glass handle?

Echoing what you go on to say, I'm not sure what you had in mind - in general, if one had something which was 'obviously' Class I, I don't think that adding 'a glass handle' would remove the need to earth the exposed-c-ps, would it?

EFLImpudence said:
What did you have in mind - an iron?

That would be example. My grandparents certainly used an iron plugged into a 2-pin 'adapter' thingy - which, in turn, was plugged into a B22 lamp holder!

EFLImpudence said:
I presume you meant "just 'allowed'"?

No, I meant what I wrote ("not allowed") - in other words, I assume that something which has live parts from which one is not protected by EITHER an earthed casing (i.e. Class I) OR by 'double or reinforced insulation' (i.e. Class II) (hence, for example, if the only protection were some flimsy plastic) would presumably not be allowed - although, as I said, I'm not sure that I know what it is that "doesn't allow" it.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 4 Apr 2019

ericmark said:
Although we may realise the item is likely safe, as an electrician can you pass a table lamp marked as class II if fitted with a BA22d bulb not marked as class II and with metal which in some lamps would be earthed?

Pragmatically speaking, since I don't think any of us have ever seen a B22 light bulb/'lamp' marked as Class II, if one regarded that as a problem, then no (table or whatever) lamp would ever have been 'passed'.

Furthermore, since no court will ever have seen a Class II-marked B22 bulb/'lamp', either, I don't think anyone need to fear being prosecuted for 'passing' a Class II (table or whatever) 'lamp' which had a bulb/'lamp' in it which was not also marked as Class II!

Kind Regards, John

EFLImpudence · 4 Apr 2019

JohnW2 said:
Echoing what you go on to say, I'm not sure what you had in mind - in general, if one had something which was 'obviously' Class I, I don't think that adding 'a glass handle' would remove the need to earth the exposed-c-ps, would it?

This is all too hypothetical.

I thought you were talking about plugging a Class I item into a lamp holder where there is no CPC to earth it - like the bulb with metal showing or an iron.

JohnW2 · 4 Apr 2019

EFLImpudence said:
This is all too hypothetical.

I agree ...

EFLImpudence said:
I thought you were talking about plugging a Class I item into a lamp holder where there is no CPC to earth it - like the bulb with metal showing or an iron.

I was, and have been throughout - it was you who brought 'glass handles' (which I didn't fully understand) into the equation!

I think we can agree that a Class I iron plugged into a 2-pin socket is not acceptable. The question raised by eric was whether the same should not apply to a B22 lamp/bulb - and I suppose one can argue that it should apply ... despite the fact that this would make nonsense of B22 bulbs and holders!

Kind Regards, John

ericmark · 4 Apr 2019

If all BA22d lamp holders were Class II then there would be no problem, however I have selected this example

Clearly some bulb holders do have a connection for the earth as seen, which means the shell of the bulb can be earthed it depends on the holder. With ES there is often a sleeve and even some times a rubber extension to put some distance between the metal shell and the glass, which has resulted in the case of my Christmas lights that you can't fit LED bulbs as the shape of the base stops it being screwed down far enough, however even with plastic BA22d the side pins are often assessable and can easy be touched while changing a bulb if the shade sleeve nut is not present.

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BA22d bulb, is it class II?

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