Electricity Suppliers - advice?

JohnW2 · 18 Apr 2019

EFLImpudence said:
There seems very little difference in the day rates (with or without E7). Even if the wrong way round, having E7 would presumably be cheaper in a lot of cases.

Indeed so.

EFLImpudence said:
What were the comparisons of your old rates?

Prior to April 2017 (i.e. 2 years ago), I was paying 16.34 p/kWh day and 6.89 p/kWh night, and the corresponding non-E7 rate was 14.39 p/kWh. More recently (i.e. up until a couple of weeks ago) I was paying 17.15 p/kWh day and 7.84 p/kWh night, and the corresponding non-E7 rate was (unchanged at) 14.39 p/kWh.

I suppose that it's not impossible that some (maybe many) other suppliers have done the same (seemingly daft, from their perspective!) thing in recent times - I don't know, because I did not really look at non-E7 tariffs during my recent extensive examination of what was on offer!

Kind Regards, John

EFLImpudence · 18 Apr 2019

Mmm. The night rate is considerably more now.

Are they getting ready for electric cars?

JohnW2 · 18 Apr 2019

EFLImpudence said:
Mmm. The night rate is considerably more now.

As I've often been pointing out, in the past couple of years the difference between day and night rates has changed dramatically. For donkeys' years prior to early 2017, day rate was generally around 2.5 times the night rate - but, following a couple of years' changes (across the industry) one is now lucky to get even 1.5.

EFLImpudence said:
Are they getting ready for electric cars?

Given that many/most suppliers seem to create new tariffs every few weeks, they don't really need to "get ready" for anything - they simply adjust their prices in more-or-less real time in response to prevailing changes in the (supply and demand) markets. If, as is the, case, they have been producing these pretty dramatic changes over the past couple of years, one can but presume that a very marked increase in night usage (relative to day usage) has already arisen during that period - and I very much doubt that that has been appreciably due to the (very modest, so far) shift to electric cars ... so I don't really know what the explanation is.

Kind Regards, John.

JohnW2 · 23 Apr 2019

winston1 said:
JohnW2 said:

If it does happen on 10th April, that will be several days before my next E.ON DD would be due to be collected, and I wonder if anyone knows what they are likely to do. I've already turned the DD amount down to the lowest I can do on-line but, if they collect that amount (after my supply has been switched away from them), it will put my account well into credit. .... Does anyone know, from experience, how suppliers usually handle this situation (I fear I can guess )?

Click to expand...

They WILL take it. You will complain, and they will say we will refund (in a month) when we have worked out the figures. This has just happened to me when I switched telecom providers. .... My advice is to cancel the DD before this can happen, and tell them you have done so.

Well, a week after that DD would have been due (and 13 days after I switched), they have NOT collected the DD - and since they have always collected DD payments 'like clockwork', I presume that this has been deliberate and that they are waiting until they produce (can produce) a final bill before they collect anything (and then, presumably, 'the correct amount', so that no refund will be necessary).

It therefore seems that not all suppliers are as 'bad' as some seem to think! I'll keep you posted.

Kind Regards, John

securespark · 23 Apr 2019

JohnW2 said:
they don't really need to "get ready" for anything

I beg to differ. Once electric car ownership is commonplace, they will have to ensure the network is up to the job.

JohnW2 · 23 Apr 2019

securespark said:
I beg to differ. Once electric car ownership is commonplace, they will have to ensure the network is up to the job.

Of course, but, playing with prices now will not facilitate that.

As I said, there is no reason which I can think of why they need to play with prices in anticipation of that (probably distant) future situation. As I said, many/most of the suppliers invent new tariffs (and stop offering the previous ones) every few weeks, so that they can adjust things 'in real time' as the (supply/demand) situation evolves - rather than make 'massive' changes in 2017-2019 in anticipation of the day (I suspect very many years away) when "electric car ownership becomes commonplace".

Kind Regards, John

SimonH2 · 24 Apr 2019

JohnW2 said:
As I've often been pointing out, in the past couple of years the difference between day and night rates has changed dramatically. For donkeys' years prior to early 2017, day rate was generally around 2.5 times the night rate - but, following a couple of years' changes (across the industry) one is now lucky to get even 1.5.

Just read this :
"In March last year for the first time ever the demand overnight was higher than the demand during the day. The traditional paradigm has been completely turned on its head."
https://www.prospect.org.uk/news/id/2019/April/10/The-panel-Is-100-renewables-possible-UK

I have to admit that I was aware that the day/night difference in demand was reducing - but I didn't realise it had gone that far. It certainly explains the change in differentials on E7 (and similar) tariffs.

JohnW2 · 24 Apr 2019

SimonH2 said:
Just read this : "In March last year for the first time ever the demand overnight was higher than the demand during the day. The traditional paradigm has been completely turned on its head." ... https://www.prospect.org.uk/news/id/2019/April/10/The-panel-Is-100-renewables-possible-UK

Very interesting - and essentially what seemed to be the inevitable explanation for the very marked changes in day/night price figures for E7 that I reported. From a quick glance at that article, I don't see any comments about possible explanations - I find it very hard to believe that EV charging has (yet) had much to do with it, but maybe I'm wrong. Any ideas?

SimonH2 said:
I have to admit that I was aware that the day/night difference in demand was reducing - but I didn't realise it had gone that far. It certainly explains the change in differentials on E7 (and similar) tariffs.

The main problem as I see it is that E7 etc tariffs are used predominantly in relation to storage heaters, and I doubt that many people use electric storage heaters for space heating 'by choice' (i.e. they have no other real options). If they are stuck with that form of heating, they will have seen their heating bills unavoidably increase by well over 50%. with the prospect of further appreciable increases - and if that were the result of a lot of people (probably not them!) buying and charging EVs, I think they would have very good reason to feel very 'hard done by'!

Kind Regards, John

SimonH2 · 25 Apr 2019

JohnW2 said:
If they are stuck with that form of heating, they will have seen their heating bills unavoidably increase by well over 50%. with the prospect of further appreciable increases - and if that were the result of a lot of people (probably not them!) buying and charging EVs, I think they would have very good reason to feel very 'hard done by'!

I have to admit that I hadn't thought of that ! It's a good point and I bet something not considered by TPTB.

JohnW2 · 25 Apr 2019

SimonH2 said:
I have to admit that I hadn't thought of that ! It's a good point and I bet something not considered by TPTB.

Quite so.

I suspect that the question of how electricity is priced (by those who generate it) will have to be re-visited (by TPTB/regulators, if not the industry itself). So long as some people (like those using storage heaters) are essentially 'forced'/obliged to use night-time electricity for certain purpose, there's no point (and no fairness) in considerably increasing the cost of that electricity "in order to discourage people from using it" (since they have no choice!).

Of course, IF EVs ever do become as widespread as is planned, and IF a substantial proportion of them are regularly charged overnight, and IF the (presumably increased) generation and distribution capacity can cope with that, then we could see a reversing of the traditional situation, with an excess of ('potentially wasted') generation/distribution capacity during the daytime (as opposed to night) - in which case we might see very attractive low electricity costs during the daylight hours, to encourage use during that time of day. If the 'daytime excess' is large enough, it might even make daytime electrical space heating as cheap (or even cheaper!) than gas!

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 26 Apr 2019

JohnW2 said:
By my calculations, as of today I owe E.ON about £25.53. If they take a DD payment 'as planned' on 16th April, I have set that (on-line) for as low as I was able (£93, being 80% of the figure they 'recommend'), although they are obviously free to collect less than that amount if they so wish - so it remains to be seen what they actually do.

I now know the answer as to 'what they actually did'.

It's a pity that E.ON hiked up their prices this year so much that I felt that I had no alternative but to leave them, since all my experiences of dealing with them over the years have been very happy ones, and what I'm about to report indicates that they are very 'decent' in their behaviour even when one 'switches' away from them.

I switched (from E.ON to ESB) on 10th April. As I recently reported, contrary to what people told me would happen, E.ON did not collect any money from me when the next DD payment was 'due' (16th April). On 24th April (14 days after I 'switched') they produced their final bill, indicating that I owed them £24.57 (very close to the £25.53 I had estimated). They say that they will collect that outstanding amount on 9th May, and have reminded me to cancel the DD once that payment has been collected.

So, even if they have become too expensive, E.ON have retained a very decent approach to dealing with customers, even when those customers are leaving them!

Kind Regards, John

bri160356 · 26 Apr 2019

Glad to see it all went smoothly for you John.

JohnW2 · 26 Apr 2019

bri160356 said:
Glad to see it all went smoothly for you John.

Thanks - and thanks again for all the assistance you gave me when I was pondering all this.

As I wrote last night, I regard it as somewhat of a pity that E.ON have become 'too expensive' - since, in comparison with all the stories one hears about other companies, it seems that E.ON may be one of the few surviving efficient and 'decent' suppliers!

Kind Regards, John

JP_ · 26 Apr 2019

I was with EON too, along with BG, now with Bulb for both.

EON just got silly with their price rises.

BG are actually cheaper in the summer for gas, as lower daily rate, but Bulb works out cheaper over the year.

Bills are down, happy with that, and Bulb are apparently a bit greener with their production, although no idea how true that is!

JohnW2 · 26 Apr 2019

jonbey said:
EON just got silly with their price rises.

Indeed. As I've said, that was the one and only reason I'd left them. Having been reasonably 'competetive' for years, had I not left them recently my bills would have increased by about 28% last week, when my existing fixed-price deal came to an end. By changing to ESB, I will be paying (for the next 2 years) almost the same as I have been paying E.ON for the last year (i.e. roughly a 'zero' increase - a lot better than 28%!)

In every other respect, I've been very satisfied with E.ON over the years. Whenever (not often) I've needed to contact them (whether about billing/payments or meter issues) they have dealt with the problem very efficiently, satisfactorily and rapidly. Also, as I previously reported, unlike many (most?) other suppliers, they do not allow one to accumulate appreciable credit balances on one's account - it seems that, every 6 months, they automatically refund any credit balance over £50. ... and, finally, as I've just seen, they even behave very reasonably when a customer leaves them.

jonbey said:
.... Bulb are apparently a bit greener with their production, although no idea how true that is!

I don't really understand what these 'greener tariffs' really mean. In a literal sense, it presumably means that they buy their wholesale energy from 'greener' producers - but the electrons providing electricity to a consumer's installation know nothing about that (they know only about 'the grid'). In the final analysis, the limiting factor is the amount of 'greener'/'sustainable' energy that we can currently produce - that would not magically increase just because suppliers wanted to buy more greener energy!

Kind Regards, John

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Electricity Suppliers - advice?

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