Load shedding by Smart Meters

JohnD said:

there are periods of high demand, and there are periods of high supply, not necessarily at the same time. Managing load is easier and cheaper than managing supply, especially when you have remote reading and control of meters, and a contract that permits you to vary prices and availability.

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Quite so.

One can but presume that most consumers would like to have a reliable (continuous) and adequate electricity supply, and one would hope that at least the more intelligent/thinking amongst them would understand that, as the balance between total demand and total supply gets more tight, that 'management of the load' (which, as you say/imply, is partially facilitated by 'smart' meters) is (unless/until generation and distribution capacity is substantially increased) the only way of safeguarding the reliability and adequacy of their supply - yet so many people seem to disapprove of and/or fear the use of smart meters for this purpose. Those who object to smart meters do not seem to offer any alternative solution for the short-/medium-term.

'Smart' meters, per se, are only of pretty limited value in terms of 'management of the load'. All they can really do (short of periodically disconnecting the entire supply) is implement TOU billing, in the hope that that will persuade people to shift some usage from high- to low-demand times of day (and/or take steps to reduce their total usage).

Any more sophisticated 'management of the load' would require very widespread deployment of new (and probably quite expensive) technological kit and creation of a complex infrastructure, and is surely not going to happen for many decades (if ever)? In the meantime, about all one can do is to try to persuade consumers to modify their energy usage, by making it in their financial interests so to do - depending on one's viewpoint/politics, one can regard that as either a financial stick or a financial carrot.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 said:

Not necessarily, no, but the regulator would presumably step in if none of a large reduction in wholesale energy prices was passed on to consumers (i.e. if the utility companies' profits became excessive).

In any event, my point was that whether a reduction in costs was the result of automated real-time billing, a reduction in wholesale fuel prices or anything else, even if none of that reduction were passed on to consumers, the one thing that certainly should not happen is that prices to consumers would rise as a result of those reductions. In other words, even if they did not become 'better off', no consumer should end up 'worse off' as a result of reductions in costs.

Kind Regards, John

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If prices failed to fall when savings are made then customer is worse off as they miss monies due.
Regulator regularly gets criticism for failings.

foxhole said:

If prices failed to fall when savings are made then customer is worse off as they miss monies due.
Regulator regularly gets criticism for failings.

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I think that you're quibbling now. They would be worse off than they might have been under different circumstances, but no worse off than they were before 'the savings were made'.

With respect, if I understand you correctly, I think it's probably a pretty silly argument. Maybe I've misunderstood, but you appeared to be suggesting that 'smart' meters are a bad thing (from customers' point of view), because they would/might enable suppliers to make savings that they then might not pass on to customers as reduced prices. However, if the change to 'smart' meters did not happen ('because it was a bad thing for customers'), then there would be no savings made in the first place, so absolutely no possibility of customers benefiting!

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 said:

Quite so.

One can but presume that most consumers would like to have a reliable (continuous) and adequate electricity supply, and one would hope that at least the more intelligent/thinking amongst them would understand that, as the balance between total demand and total supply gets more tight, that 'management of the load' (which, as you say/imply, is partially facilitated by 'smart' meters) is (unless/until generation and distribution capacity is substantially increased) the only way of safeguarding the reliability and adequacy of their supply - yet so many people seem to disapprove of and/or fear the use of smart meters for this purpose. Those who object to smart meters do not seem to offer any alternative solution for the short-/medium-term.

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It doesn't really matter how intelligent you are or how much financial penalty burden is placed on people to shift their usage when we work the hours we do in this country. The vast majority work in a service based sectors on a roughly 9-5 basis.

It is impossible for me to boil the kettle off peak to avoid the punitive cost as I'm in the office so the extremely high cost will be incurred to get a brew on before leaving.

Setting the dishwasher and washing machine to come on when the house is empty is possible but even the manufacturers tell you not to leave them running unattended, the reasons why are obvious.

Until we have more flexible working arrangements for service based staff I doubt little can be changed we'll just pay more. Targeting employers to get with the modern and introduce flexible and home working allows people to consider changing their usage patterns in the first instance.

ironsidebod said:

It doesn't really matter how intelligent you are or how much financial penalty burden is placed on people to shift their usage when we work the hours we do in this country. The vast majority work in a service based sectors on a roughly 9-5 basis.

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Hmmm. I wonder if I am understanding you correctly - are you saying that the 9-5 working day means that many/most people do not have the opportunity to use much electricity domestically during those hours?

ironsidebod said:

Until we have more flexible working arrangements for service based staff I doubt little can be changed we'll just pay more.

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If supply comes to be inadequate to service peak demand, "just paying more" will not, in itself, help. Charging more during periods of peak demand might help - but only if it resulted in some people being deterred from using so much electricity when it was expensive, hence reducing the peak demand.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 said:

Hmmm. I wonder if I am understanding you correctly - are you saying that the 9-5 working day means that many/most people do not have the opportunity to use much electricity domestically during those hours?
If supply comes to be inadequate to service peak demand, "just paying more" will not, in itself, help. Charging more during periods of peak demand might help - but only if it resulted in some people being deterred from using so much electricity when it was expensive, hence reducing the peak demand.

Kind Regards, John

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I think that you are quibbling now.

foxhole said:

I think that you are quibbling now.

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I'm not sure what you think I'm quibbling about. I would like to respond to your first point in your previous post, but I held back whilst awaiting a response to my question at the start of my previous post, where I asked you to clarify whether I was understanding you correctly. Could you perhaps respond to that? Thanks

Edit: Apologies - since you quoted my response to ironsidebod, I got you muddled up with him!

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 said:

Hmmm. I wonder if I am understanding you correctly - are you saying that the 9-5 working day means that many/most people do not have the opportunity to use much electricity domestically during those hours?
If supply comes to be inadequate to service peak demand, "just paying more" will not, in itself, help. Charging more during periods of peak demand might help - but only if it resulted in some people being deterred from using so much electricity when it was expensive, hence reducing the peak demand.

Kind Regards, John

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What I was getting at is that it just does not matter what prices they set, how they charge for electricity or tell service sector workers they should use electricity out of peak hours to help spread the load it just isn't possible to vary usage when your day is mapped out by your employer.

If I leave for work at 7am then it's impossible for me to boil the kettle for a cuppa at 9am so I have to make one at 6.30, the same as millions of other people - it's pretty certain that these periods will have the pricing loaded to encourage different usage/profit but what are people suppose to do until employers allow employees to work flexible hours?

Peak energy usage comes about for very specific reasons - we're all compelled to fit a working schedule. Smart meters/pricing/brown outs do not change this.

ironsidebod said:

What I was getting at is that it just does not matter what prices they set, how they charge for electricity or tell service sector workers they should use electricity out of peak hours to help spread the load it just isn't possible to vary usage when your day is mapped out by your employer.

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That's what I thought you meant, but you seem to have highlighted a potentially big problem....

... if you are right that, because of "9-5 working days", a high proportion of people do not use much electricity (domestically) during those hours, then the whole concept of attempting to address the supply/demand issue by persuading/bribing/whatever people to change their domestic electricity usage patterns really goes out of the window - since that very 9-5 period IS, essentially, the 'peak demand period'. If they are (because of their working hours) already using relatively little electricity during that peak-demand period, there's obviously not much scope to change things by getting them to alter their pattern (timing) of electricity usage. Taking yesterday as an example ...



Kind Regards, John

ban-all-sheds said:

It's a simple deal - "This is what electricity is going to cost at these times¹ - if you would like a way to reduce your consumption by having high-load appliances turned off during periods of high price we can help you with that. It's entirely up to you - you can carry on using energy the way you do now, and pay the cost of that, or you can take steps yourself to reduce your usage by better controlling what you turn on and when or you can use our EZShed² system to do it for you".

¹ Bear in mind that details of how much and when for demand-management pricing are likely to be published at fairly short notice.

² Trademark applied for.

[snip]

If on top of that there comes to be a system whereby consumers can save money via a voluntary cap, then smart appliances will suddenly become much more popular. The fridge freezer and the washing machine and the dryer and the dishwasher all talk to each other and ensure that they do not draw power simultaneously. The technology for this already exists, but as you say there is not yet any demand. But I predict that there will be.

In fact, although "smart" would be a tad of an exaggeration, some appliances already have the ability to delay starting until the off-peak period, don't they.

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Its likely its going to happen, but whats it going to look like...

The meter is going to need someway to talk to all those 'smart' applicances, and the meter once installed ....

Now how likely do you think it is that we end up with some point to point system that is somewhat limiting, is wireless only and doesn't allow much in the way of custom settings, and while the defaults are ok-ish, they are not optimal for most people, but instead are pretty much chosen to not cause too much inconvieince to a lot of people, however the wireless system doesn't work in some properties with thick walls or foil lined plasterboard. Being sealed and locked down, there is no other way to get the tarriff data out of the meter, and being a meter people can't start running custom firmware on it etc.... Of course it would all be cloud connected so you could see when your washine machine is nearly done from your iphone. Your fridge gets locked out of the system when its out of lifecycle support and can't get patches to prevent it being recruited for a Botnet.....

Or do you think it'll be sensible, and allow the tariff data to be accessed with a a standard protocol that is documented, and offers both wired and wireless options

From Wikipedia ( and supported by other sources not yet in the public domain )

In 2016, it was reported that over 1.6 million teleswitches were in use. Around 190,000 were reported as being used dynamically to control loads such as heating on a day-to-day basis, with the remainder following generally fixed switching times that were updated less frequently.[2]

Formal agreements
The Electricity Association (EA), which was previously known as the Electricity Council, entered into a renewed formal agreement with the BBC in 1996 as an agent of the users. The EA had also negotiated an agreement with the National Grid Company (NGC) concerning the servicing of the CTCU. Since 2004 the functions of EA regarding this contract have been taken over by the Energy Networks Association.

Transmitter and service obsolescence
The Radio Teleswitch Service is broadcast alongside the longwave output of BBC Radio 4 from the Droitwich Transmitting Station.

In October 2011, the BBC admitted that the Droitwich transmitter, including Radio 4's longwave service and Radio Teleswitch, will cease to operate when one of the last two valves breaks, and no effort would be made to manufacture more nor to install a replacement longwave transmitter.

The BBC stated that their plan is simply to cease broadcasting on longwave forever once the Droitwich transmitter fails. It has been reported that the BBC estimated that less than ten spare compatible valves existed in the world, and that each valve had a working life of between one and ten years.[3] However, ex-BBC engineers say the valves are ceramic, not glass and these valves can be made to order, perfectly safely.[4]

A 50 kW longwave transmitter transmitting a 1000 Hz wide signal could take over the teleswitch role with adequate nationwide coverage—but some legal provision would probably have to be made to make this possible.

In 2016, the Energy Networks Association consulted on the future of the service, highlighting that no agreement for its operation past the end of 2017 existed. While most suppliers acknowledged the system could ultimately be replaced by smart meter functionality, there was general agreement that the system would need to continue until at least 2020 to avoid significant inconvenience to customers.[5]

In 2016 ....... While most suppliers acknowledged the system could ultimately be replaced by smart meter functionality,

... pressed send button by mistake!

Adam_151 said:

.... The meter is going to need someway to talk to all those 'smart' applicances, and the meter once installed ....

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It would do - well, at least, there would have to be something (not necessarily a 'meter') which talks to appliances.

However, before we can even start thinking about anything "talking to 'smart' appliances", we would need to have 'smart' appliances for them to talk to, and for those appliances to have been widely (essentially universally) deployed. Some may already exist, but I have personally neither seen nor heard of one - which leads me to suspect that we are talking about many decades before any of this happens (if ever).

Kind Regards, John

we don't have many electric vehicles yet, but car companies have already stopped development of new diesel and petrol models.

As the numbers grow, so will demand for a profitable way of supplying the energy to charge them.

The oil majors are already experimenting and prototyping ways to make money out of it, no doubt the energy companies are as well.

It's too early to say what the solution(s) will be, but I don't believe it will be decades. Remember that for many years the BBC transmitter at Doitwich has been signalling to "economy 7" meters to turn them on and off. There are £billions at stake so somebody will pay for the infrastructure. (edit: missed the earlier post)

I expect there will also be changes in the tax regime to fill the gap left by fuel duties.

JohnW2 said:

we would need to have 'smart' appliances for them to talk to,

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At least one brand of domestic gas boilers have the ability to chat to each other and also contact the manufacturer's service department to report faults or tampering that the residents in the house will not report. It is pure hearsay that this facility could be used to modulate boilers down to reduce gas demand at peak periods.