EICR Questions

John D v2.0 · 6 Jun 2019

seasickstevie said:
If that is the case, I think NICEIC (and Napit etc if it applies to others) need to make that fact perfectly clear to all.

Especially when it seems that some contractors (including myself) are unsure what exactly these descriptions mean.

True although i would have said from a lay persons point of view, i wouldn't class eicrs as installation work. And customers are extremely unlikely to delve into any detail on that, once they saw a nice logo that's enough for them.
Anyone can do an eicr, even i can, and it might not comply with the standard or it might. In my opinion fundamentally the issue is that the the electrician did something they weren't competent to do. The role i could envisage for the schemes would be to educate registered people on what they should and shouldn't do, but what happens in the real world isn't usually ideal. To be honest the argument is more about how much we should regulate the electrical profession.

John D v2.0 · 6 Jun 2019

EFLImpudence said:
Perhaps you could explain the difference between the two and why a DI should/would not be able to classify the safety implications - if competent to install it.

A DIs job is to install something fully compliant with the regs. This can be formulaic stuff from the osg. Their only job is to leave behind a compliant installation in terms of their changes, so they can suggest unnecessary bonding and whatever else they like, as long as it doesn't stop their work being non compliant. They don't have to worry about safety implications of existing stuff, as if they are in any doubt they they just need to replace what's there with what they know would comply with the regs.
an approved contractor has to understand where the boundary between compliant and non compliant lies and judge things that are unusual, but compliant. Or judge things that are non compliant in terms of what level of danger they pose compared with a compliant installation. The DI is just installing things so even on an existing installation they would just quote to fix/change it as part of the new work they are doing if they are in any doubt. That's why things are rife with people being quoted for unnecessary work, and a lot of these quotes i agree come with a veil of official letters in the form of an "eicr"

I think it boils down to there not being enough electricians of q high standard, so the standards are reduced in order to get enough people. We can either have high standards and have a shortage and therefore encourage DIY, or lower or multiple standards and have other limitations

EFLImpudence · 6 Jun 2019

I think we are forgetting that registration with a scheme is only required so that the electrician may save the customer a hefty notification fee.
Joining a trade body (especially the NICEIC) may also be advantageous in obtaining work.

Anyone may install in domestic premises and undertake EICRs so for the NICEIC to judge as competent a so-called DI for installation work but not judge as competent for EICRs is, at least, misleading and I would say dereliction of duty for financial gain.

John D v2.0 · 6 Jun 2019

Well that's the cynics view! You can keep it, i prefer my analysis!

Let's just agree the world is not ideal but it still keeps on turning

JohnW2 · 6 Jun 2019

EFLImpudence said:
I think we are forgetting that registration with a scheme is only required so that the electrician may save the customer a hefty notification fee. Joining a trade body (especially the NICEIC) may also be advantageous in obtaining work. Anyone may install in domestic premises and undertake EICRs so for the NICEIC to judge as competent a so-called DI for installation work but not judge as competent for EICRs is, at least, misleading and I would say dereliction of duty for financial gain.

To be fair, I don't think that NICEIC are saying that one of their DI members must not undertake EICRs - as you say, non-scheme-members (and even non-electricians) can do them.

Rather, they seem to be saying that, since they have not 'assessed' the ability of DIs to undertake EICRs (whatever that means), they take no responsibility for such EICRs and offer no Warranty or complaints procedures in relation to them. Although, as we've seen, it is perhaps being done in a manner which can mislead customers (I still don't understand where those forms came from!), as a principle I would say that, if done in a non-misleading way, it would probably be 'fair enough'.

Kind Regards, John

EFLImpudence · 6 Jun 2019

Yes, I realise and understand that. I just don't think they should do that.

WhydidIstart · 7 Jun 2019

JohnW2 said:
WhydidIstart: at risk of appearing to doubt you, just to be absolutely certain, can you confirm that all pages of the the EICR you have bear not only the NICEIC logo but also the adjacent "Domestic Installer" logo?

I double checked and yes they do, please see picture below. Sorry about the photo quality, but you can see the logos. I also noticed the suggested date of next inspection is "ASAP".

JohnW2 · 7 Jun 2019

WhydidIstart said:
I double checked and yes they do, please see picture below. Sorry about the photo quality, but you can see the logos. I also noticed the suggested date of next inspection is "ASAP".

Thanks. I'm far from convinced that they are EICR (rather than EIC) forms - what is the title on each page (partially covered in most cases in your photo) which starts "DOMESTIC ELECTRICAL...."?

As I said, given the stated position of NICEIC, and what forms appear to be purchasable on their website, NICEIC Domestic Installer-branded EICR forms would not be expected to exist.

Kind Regards, John

WhydidIstart · 7 Jun 2019

The title on each page is DOMESTIC ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION CONDITION REPORT.

Indeed, NICEIC don't seem to be very helpful but yet appear to provide the forms.

WhydidIstart · 7 Jun 2019

It looked like the guy had some software where he enters the values and it generates the form automatically, so maybe the vendor of this software has put that logo on the forms?

JohnW2 · 7 Jun 2019

WhydidIstart said:
The title on each page is DOMESTIC ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION CONDITION REPORT.

That's clear enough, then!

WhydidIstart said:
Indeed, NICEIC don't seem to be very helpful but yet appear to provide the forms.

Well, your electrician clearly has found a source of these forms - but, as I've said, unless I'm missing them, they are not forms which are available for purchase on their website. Could they be 'fakes'?

I really think you should question this with NICEIC - telling them that, despite what they have said to you, you have an EICR on "NICIEC-DI-branded" EICR forms, and expressing your confusion/surprise that they should provide such forms (which are likely to mislead customers) if they do not regard their DI members as having been assessed as competent to undertake EICRs!

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 7 Jun 2019

WhydidIstart said:
It looked like the guy had some software where he enters the values and it generates the form automatically, so maybe the vendor of this software has put that logo on the forms?

As far as I can make out, all the NICEIC forms seem to be 'electronic', and use NICEIC software. However, why would any software (produced by anyone) have the NICEIC DI logo on an EICR form, if NICEIC does not 'approve' DIs to undertake EICRs?

Kind Regards, John

SimonH2 · 8 Jun 2019

JohnW2 said:
However, why would any software (produced by anyone) have the NICEIC DI logo on an EICR form, if NICEIC does not 'approve' DIs to undertake EICRs?

Because people are prepated to pay for it ?
Or perhaps the vendor know nothing about the system and just does "a form" ? The latter could even be like the model forms downloadable (PDF) from the IET website - and which have been turned into forms by someone, perhaps not realising that the difference between membership type is more than just a logo change ?

JohnW2 · 8 Jun 2019

SimonH2 said:
Because people are prepated to pay for it ? ... Or perhaps the vendor know nothing about the system and just does "a form" ? The latter could even be like the model forms downloadable (PDF) from the IET website - and which have been turned into forms by someone, perhaps not realising that the difference between membership type is more than just a logo change ?

All possible, I suppose. I would think that's an even stronger reason for speaking to NICEIC about this, if the situation is that someone is using apparently NICEIC-branded forms which were not supplied by NICEIC and which appear to have been used for a purpose not approved/'allowed' by NICEIC.

Kind Regards, John

securespark · 8 Jun 2019

Hopefully, you made a note of the name of the NIC geezer who told you that DI's cannot carry out EICR's.

I would ring them back and have it out with them. Either way, they need to do something about this situation.

Either it is correct that DI's cannot do EICR's, in which case, given the paperwork, this fella is misleading nay decieving MOP's.

Or it is incorrect (DI's can do EICR's) in which case they should accept responsibility for this issue and offer their full assistance to you in sorting it out instead of washing their hands of it.

I have seen many a horror story "installed" by an NIC spark (before DI's were introduced). The last one I went to was a light switch where an NIC spark had re-purposed the CPC as another switchwire and when I told the customer they were perplexed. They gave me the guy's number and I explained the issue. His response?

"What's wrong with that?"

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