This is the healthcare we voted for with Brexit - Lets Do It

Status
Not open for further replies.
Gerrydelasel said:
What US model?
"Plans have been tabled to convert the NHS into a public/private enterprise, which critics say is based upon the US private health insurance-based system"
Note that it's only (UK-centric) critics who claim it is a US model, notably Allyson Pollock:
"Pollock said...proposals were an attempt to Americanise health care in England... Our NHS has been an international model for countries around the world".
This is opinion, not fact. It's not even unbiased opinion. Pollock makes the false equivalency that "public/private = US model". It doesn't. Remember, most of the world's health systems are public/private enterprises (even the NHS* has never been fully public, e.g. GP surgeries are all private). She's right the NHS is a model for countries around the world, but it's a model that apparently no other country wants to copy (maybe Cuba?), because it woefully underforms compared to the other options adopted by developed countries.

*Peace Be Upon It
Click to expand...

What utter tosh again from yourself. Read up about Jeremy private jaunts to US Healthcare shows.

The ACO Model which Jeremy Hunt was trying to push through.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2017/11/1...t-properly-on-accountable-care-organisations/

Crucially ACOs will be non-NHS bodies, “designated” by NHSE, even though there is no statutory provision conferring such a function on NHSE.

The consultation failed to address many issues—why, for example, are ACOs necessary to achieve the stated policy objectives? No explanation was provided for why the powers already given by parliament to integrate services are insufficient to achieve the objectives.
 
Sponsored Links
Gerrydelasel said:
Indeed. But that still does not make it anything remotely like the US system.
Click to expand...

Give it time. They will start off by saying its free at the point of delivery and then have private providers who will need to make a profit. So they will factor in return on their investments. They like Carillion will bid low and win the contract, back load the costs and then walk away, it's what happened with Ali Parsa Circle healthcare running a Hospital.

Instead of the Government admitting it's a failed policy they will double down and offer more profitable contracts - that can only happen with service levels being cut if the Government is not willing to pay more for it. So you will be paying more for less.

Let this happen over a decade or two and you will find it's impossible to go back to the NHS because it would take huge investment. So you will have the US healthcare system. Just like the US healthcare.

I just give it at how naive or plain stupid people are who think that this will not happen in the UK.

What happens if a large ACO goes bust, should the Government step in? You are on cancer treatment and now the Hospital cannot provide it anymore - should you just grin and bear it? This leads to moral hazard because implicitly the Government will step in and thus those running the ACO will know they can be reckless because if they ever go bankrupt the Government would step in.
 
Sponsored Links
EddieM said:
UK passports have never been black, don't know who you bought yours from :LOL:
Click to expand...

Well, it must be very very very very very very dark blue then, because it looks at black as night. Sure I saw it not so long ago, will try to dig it out again and share a photo.

Although seems others are having this colour crisis. My old one looks just like the one in this pic:
efda6562f4ec4a8de18e49afe0db336a94ab5fa0

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...e-answer-explains-brexit-20180418-p4zaem.html
 
jonbey said:
Well, it must be very very very very very very dark blue then, because it looks at black as night. Sure I saw it not so long ago, will try to dig it out again and share a photo.
Click to expand...

Well, they do look black, but the official colour is dark blue.
 
lol. Now that is bonkers. It isn't black, it's blue, because officials say so?

OK. Oh look, the sky is yellow today, and my political views are blue. It's a topsy turvy world.
 
Yeah but its not Purple. We are taking back control, once we have our blue, black passports we will conquer the world again.

Positive thought is all you need. That wonky gas fitting will be OK with some tape, just believe.

Stick two fingers up at science, we dont need experts but why are all these millenials doing arts degrees, they need to study science subjects. We need more engineers and scientists but we dont want experts.

Mad ramblings of RWR.
 
EddieM said:
Well, they do look black, but the official colour is dark blue.
Click to expand...
Lets just hope they don't come back in that old size...

Trying to fit one comfortably into a money belt was a real pain!
 
SirGalahad said:
Give it time. They will start off by saying its free at the point of delivery and then have private providers who will need to make a profit. So they will factor in return on their investments. They like Carillion will bid low and win the contract, back load the costs and then walk away, it's what happened with Ali Parsa Circle healthcare running a Hospital. Instead of the Government admitting it's a failed policy they will double down and offer more profitable contracts - that can only happen with service levels being cut if the Government is not willing to pay more for it. So you will be paying more for less. Let this happen over a decade or two and you will find it's impossible to go back to the NHS because it would take huge investment. So you will have the US healthcare system. Just like the US healthcare. I just give it at how naive or plain stupid people are who think that this will not happen in the UK.
Click to expand...
Useless forecasting logic. The NHS has always been public/private since the start (GP surgeries are private, as are many other parts of the NHS) so by your logic these mercenary businesses should have turned the NHS into the US system decades ago. Besides, you can make precisely the same form of argument about the creation of the NHS itself:

"They will start off by saying its free at the point of delivery and then add more and more services, expanding its purview from curing diseases and injuries to more vague things like social care and cosmetic surgery, to health and lifestyle education, to workplace safety regulation. Everything affects your health, after all, so everything will eventually come under NHS control. Costs will increase without limit. Instead of the Government admitting it's a failed policy it will double down and demand more taxation to prop it up. Let this happen over a decade or two and you will find the NHS commands the entire economy and we're basically living under communism. It's impossible to go back because it would take huge institutional reform. So you will have the USSR system. Just like the USSR. I just give it at how naive or plain stupid people are who think that this will not happen in the UK."

This is known as the slippery slope falacy.

What happens if a large ACO goes bust, should the Government step in?
Click to expand...
What happens now if a bank or government contractor goes bust?
You are on cancer treatment and now the Hospital cannot provide it anymore - should you just grin and bear it?
Click to expand...
What happens now when your hospital stops providing a certain kind of treatment, or provides it badly, or the hospital simply closes?
This leads to moral hazard because implicitly the Government will step in and thus those running the ACO will know they can be reckless because if they ever go bankrupt the Government would step in.
Click to expand...
The AOC presumably wants to make money, not go bankrupt. If the government stepped in it would be to continue support to the customer (patients), not to reimburse the profits of the AOC. That's not an incentive to the AOC management to be reckless.
 
Last edited:
Gerrydelasel said:
Useless forecasting logic. The NHS has always been public/private since the start (GP surgeries are private, as are many other parts of the NHS) so by your logic these mercenary businesses should have turned the NHS into the US system decades ago. Besides, you can make precisely the same form of argument about the creation of the NHS itself:

"They will start off by saying its free at the point of delivery and then add more and more services, expanding its purview from curing diseases and injuries to more vague things like social care and cosmetic surgery, to health and lifestyle education, to workplace safety regulation. Everything affects your health, after all, so everything will eventually come under NHS control. Costs will increase without limit. Instead of the Government admitting it's a failed policy it will double down and demand more taxation to prop it up. Let this happen over a decade or two and you will find the NHS commands the entire economy and we're basically living under communism. It's impossible to go back because it would take huge institutional reform. So you will have the USSR system. Just like the USSR. I just give it at how naive or plain stupid people are who think that this will not happen in the UK."

This is known as the slippery slope falacy.


What happens now if a bank or government contractor goes bust?

What happens now when your hospital stops providing a certain kind of treatment, or provides it badly, or the hospital simply closes?

The AOC presumably wants to make money, not go bankrupt. If the government stepped in it would be to continue support to the customer (patients), not to reimburse the profits of the AOC. That's not an incentive to the AOC management to be reckless.
Click to expand...

So you have no rebuttal and certainly do not know how markets work.

Agency capture happened in the US and regulators are no more than rubber stamping exercises - FAA is a case in point.

Look how the US healthcare market developed.

When there is historical facts how markets operate and work and you simply disregard that - you certainly are one not to learn from history.
 
Gerrydelasel said:
The AOC presumably wants to make money, not go bankrupt. If the government stepped in it would be to continue support to the customer (patients), not to reimburse the profits of the AOC. That's not an incentive to the AOC management to be reckless.
Click to expand...

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

When there is moral hazard they will take unnecessary risks because they know that if they fail the Government will step in (too big to fail, too big to jail) . You have just proven you don't understand how markets work. You have a simplistic neo classical view of markets thats not based in reality.
 
Martin Sutherland is a remainer and priced over the top for the contract. I remember now.
 
Gerrydelasel said:
When there is moral hazard they will take unnecessary risks because they know that if they fail the Government will step in (too big to fail, too big to jail) . You have just proven you don't understand how markets work. You have a simplistic neo classical view of markets thats not based in reality.
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting the government will never allow a risk-taking AOC to fail? If the government decides it will not allow a private business to fail, even when it ought to fail, then that is a problem with the government, not with the market. You have just proven you don't understand how markets work. And if you think the government really is that reckless, why on earth do you want it to have monopoly over the entire health service?*

*How many times do we read about hospital scandals, sometimes years of unacceptable service and the unecessary deaths of hundreds of patients? And how often does that result in the hospital closure, change of ownership, or operator prosecution? Never, because the state is the owner and operator; it does not permit alternative ownership and will not prosecute itself. So it's business as usual.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsored Links

Similar threads

S
The populist Tory party has a lie at its heart
2 3 4
Replies
52
Views
4K
ReganAndCarter
ReganAndCarter
Back
Top