Window height too high, indemnity insurance?

SallyR · 27 Nov 2019

We've just completed a large extension. Building control came yesterday to complete the final visit and have noticed that the opening for the windows in the 1st floor extension are 7cm too high. This is the builders error and they're now aware that they need to rectify as it clearly states in the building regulation drawings that the opening should be no higher than 110cm.
I spoke with the builder today who proposes we put in a fixed step which would allow building regulations to be signed off then remove.
I am not sure I'm comfortable with this as if we remove then will our house insurance be validated, do we break our mortgage agreement, if we to sell the house would we need to put the step back to ensure we're not breaking some law as we know we've removed? The questions go on.
Do I get the builder to take out some sort of insurance to cover this if I have to at a later date change the windows for a larger one in height and remove lower bricks?
Anyone had experience with this?
Thanks

johnny2007 · 27 Nov 2019

7cm???
What council is this?
They're really going mental with these regulations.
They want the opening at max 1100mm so one could climb and be rescued by fire brigades.
However they also want a safety catch so children cannot open the window fully.
So in the panic of escaping, would you be able to undo the catches with both hands so to be rescued?
Don't fire brigade help climbing out of the window?
Old properties have windows as high as 1300mm on first, second, and even third floor.
What about them???
I think your BC is just trying to find a fault to justify their existence.

SallyR · 27 Nov 2019

I know!
It is slightly higher than the original upstairs windows but the builder was following the brick line I assume.
I just don't want this to come back and bite me on the backside if I agree to a step now and then am forced to change the opening etc in the future which I'll have to pay for when it wasn't our fault.

^woody^ · 27 Nov 2019

What advantage is it to you if you accept the builder's bodge, then live with an unauthorised work by removing the step (and so invalidating your home insurance) and then risking a house sale with some other scheme that may or may not work?

It's their mistake, get them to rectify it, get everything certified and live with no worries.

SallyR · 27 Nov 2019

Thanks woody, I thick this is how we feel too. I'm going to speak with some friends that are in the housing/ building industry to back up my reasons to go back to the builder to get them to rectify their mistake.

JP_ · 27 Nov 2019

It's a PITA but I would also tell the builder it needs to be done in line with BC - what is the point of building inspections if when they find fault, the builder just bodges it?

mrrusty · 28 Nov 2019

7cm! less than 3". The builder has obviously followed the brick line. Will you be happy with windows that don't line up for appearance? I can pretty much guarantee that once this is done and dusted no-one will ever pick this up - you'll have a completion cert that won't mention it and I've never seen a surveyor yet that has gone around measuring internal window heights for building regs. I'd get the step and sign off and move on. In the unlikely event it ever was raised again, just put the step back.

I'll believe the insurance invalidation angle only if anyone will quote the wording from their policy that says this. Until then I say cojones!

Notch7 · 28 Nov 2019

My guess is the builder did 1100mm floor to top of brickwork and BC neasured from floor to window opening.

Its a trivial difference but its wrong.

Its tough on the builder, as its quite a bit if work for ne real gain.......but ultimately it is his error.

A step is a trip hazard, so unfortunately changing the window is the only answer.

Its a big extension, so youve been working with the builder on site for quite a long time. If you are happy with the work and have a good relationship with the builder, you might consider helping him with the cost a bit -it may depend on how flexible he has been with extras.

If its a big extension and thats the only problem, you should be pretty pleased.

mrrusty · 28 Nov 2019

A step is a trip hazard, so unfortunately changing the window is the only answer.

The step has to be there for 5 minutes hopefully allowing BC to sign off compliance as a tick-box and can then be removed. Seriously, peeps, this is de minimis. Fortunately my own BC isn't as picky and seems to live in the real world. If BC are willing to accept a step as a solution, then I say do it and move on - I think I would ask them the question before I started ripping windows out.....

^woody^ · 28 Nov 2019

mrrusty said:
The step has to be there for 5 minutes hopefully allowing BC to sign off compliance as a tick-box and can then be removed. Seriously, peeps, this is de minimis. Fortunately my own BC isn't as picky and seems to live in the real world. If BC are willing to accept a step as a solution, then I say do it and move on - I think I would ask them the question before I started ripping windows out.....

You can have your own view, but the fact is that the BCO is not being picky but enforcing the required regulations.

This is a significant fire safety issue (ie it fails the requirements and is unlawful) and there are implications for that which you don't seem to comprehend.

A step is a solution, but a large platform rather than a step.

mrrusty · 28 Nov 2019

You can have your own view, but the fact is that the BCO is not being picky but enforcing the required regulations.

This is a significant fire safety issue (ie it fails the requirements and is unlawful) and there are implications for that which you don't seem to comprehend.

I agree that they are enforcing the regulation, and I fully comprehend the implications (because my day job involves validation against CE standards) but to suggest that a 7cm non-compliant threshold height is a "significant safety issue" rather than a de minimis deviation from a fairly arbitrary measurement is stretching reality. If it was 70cm it would be a fair point. I say again, if BC are happy to sign it off with a step, I'd do it and move on. The completion certificate will be all that is needed in the future.

Notch7 · 28 Nov 2019

mrrusty said:
The step has to be there for 5 minutes hopefully allowing BC to sign off compliance as a tick-box and can then be removed. Seriously, peeps, this is de minimis. Fortunately my own BC isn't as picky and seems to live in the real world. If BC are willing to accept a step as a solution, then I say do it and move on - I think I would ask them the question before I started ripping windows out.....

It is trivial, but the regulation is set at 1100mm. Effectively the regulation has a tolerance= 1,100mm +0 -300 so the builder couldve fitted the window between 800mm and 1100mm and be compliant.

If the window isnt changed, the client is left with the non compliance, not the builder.....which is the query the OP raised.

I understand the argument that 70mm is trivial, but there can be no argument the builder is 100% at fault.

Its a bit like speeding. If a camera catches a driver doing 31mph they could get a ticket and if it happened the driver would be really pizzed off - but he couldnt deny being wrong. (I speak as somebody who has done 3 speed awareness courses.....Grrr).

mrrusty · 28 Nov 2019

but there can be no argument the builder is 100% at fault

Absolutely, and I agree the client is left with the potential non-compliance. However I come back yet again to the point that if BC will accept that a step is a simple way of them ticking the box (as the builder suggests) and the client ends up with a completion certificate, that's enough to put the whole thing to bed. The risk of any subsequent consequence IMHO is ridiculously small. The concept of de minimis in UK law is that "As a matter of policy, the law does not encourage parties to bring legal actions for technical breaches of rules or agreements where the impact of the breach is negligible", and I suggest this is a case where the impact is negligible.

The concept of de minimis has to exist in real-world - it allows the arbitrators to assess the facts of a situation against what the intention of a regulation is rather than the pure black and white. In this case there is always going to be a range of subjectivity until a threshold of non compliance is crossed where in a court the judgement is that the intent of the regulation has been broken. Until that legal judgement sets a precedent, the whole thing is just a subjective argument. Where does the practical contravention occur? at 1101mm? or 1110mm? or 1150mm? or 1200mm? or beyond i.e. where is the borderline between de minimis and contravention?

In real world, if the OP ever needs to sell their house, all they will ever be asked for is the completion certificate. Tick box ticked.

JP_ · 28 Nov 2019

Good point. Maybe then the best way is to say to the builder -- OK, let's try with the step idea, but if they say no, you'll have to fit a bigger / lower window?

mrrusty · 28 Nov 2019

Good point. Maybe then the best way is to say to the builder -- OK, let's try with the step idea, but if they say no, you'll have to fit a bigger / lower window?

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Window height too high, indemnity insurance?

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