replacing the nations gas boilers

IT Minion · 29 Nov 2019

I'd guess the other way. Gas burns quite cleanly and if you're using it for heat directly then that should be more efficient than to heat for electricity then to heat again.

But perhaps the cut off should be when we ban new Gas power plants, then be ban new home boilers.

IT Minion · 29 Nov 2019

I'd guess the other way. Gas burns quite cleanly and if you're using it for heat directly then that should be more efficient than to heat for electricity then to heat again.

But perhaps the cut off should be when we ban new Gas power plants, then be ban new home gas boilers.

IT Minion · 29 Nov 2019

ericmark said:
If that were the case, gas would work out more expensive to electric, but that is not true, we know there are losses on all transmission lines, we hope gas does not escape from pipe lines.

Compared to heat pumps gas is more expensive (to run). Losses included.

flameport · 29 Nov 2019

JohnW2 said:
I don't know, but would imagine (and hope) that the burning of gas in power stations is probably more efficient

It isn't, not even close.

Burning gas in a boiler in the home for heating results in most of the energy being used.
Combined cycle gas turbines are only about 50-60% efficient, and then once the losses of electricity distribution are added, you'll be lucky if you get even half of the energy at the end user.

Promoting electric heating as a gas alternative when the biggest source of electricity in the UK is burning gas is a total farce, and if implemented even on a small scale will make things far worse in terms of emissions and environmental impact.

IT Minion · 29 Nov 2019

flameport said:
It isn't, not even close.

Burning gas in a boiler in the home for heating results in most of the energy being used.
Combined cycle gas turbines are only about 50-60% efficient, and then once the losses of electricity distribution are added, you'll be lucky if you get even half of the energy at the end user.

Promoting electric heating as a gas alternative when the biggest source of electricity in the UK is burning gas is a total farce, and if implemented even on a small scale will make things far worse in terms of emissions and environmental impact.

... Until you factor in heat pumps, with a COP of 3 (a midrange number) you'd have to lose half that power plant electricity in transit to make it break even again.

Of course heat pumps are free in cereal boxes and easy to install everywhere.

JohnW2 · 29 Nov 2019

IT Minion said:
I'd guess the other way. Gas burns quite cleanly and if you're using it for heat directly then that should be more efficient than to heat for electricity then to heat again.

In terms of 'power efficiency', that's got to be true to some extent - but that was not what I was talking about.

If by 'burns quite cleanly', if you mean that, when burnt correctly it produces minimal soot and carbon mocoxide, that's true, but most of the concern is about the (inevitable) carbon dioxide, if that is not somehow 'removed'.

Ironically, 'unclean' gas burning might well be, in some senses, more environmentally-friendly, since if soot (carbon particles) is produced, that means less CO2 going into the atmosphere!

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 29 Nov 2019

flameport said:
It isn't, not even close. ... Burning gas in a boiler in the home for heating results in most of the energy being used. .... Combined cycle gas turbines are only about 50-60% efficient, and then once the losses of electricity distribution are added, you'll be lucky if you get even half of the energy at the end user.

As I've just written, I chose my words badly, since I was not talking about 'power efficiency' (although that is obviously part of the energy/CO2 equation). What I was really thinking of is the fact that the prevention of the majority of CO2 produced by burning gas in power stations getting into the atmosphere is a probably a technologically feasible proposition, but that the same is unlikely to be feasible in relation to gas burnt in the home.

Kind Regards, John

flameport · 29 Nov 2019

JohnW2 said:
revention of the majority of CO2 produced by burning gas in power stations getting into the atmosphere is a probably a technologically feasible proposition

Totally feasible. So is the same thing applied to coal burning stations.

Won't be happening, as electricity generation is driven by the lowest cost and no other consideration.
Coal stations closed and were replaced with gas primarily because gas is cheaper.

JohnW2 · 29 Nov 2019

flameport said:
Totally feasible. So is the same thing applied to coal burning stations. ... Won't be happening, as electricity generation is driven by the lowest cost and no other consideration.

Maybe not, but I would have thought that exploiting that feasibility would probably be a lower-cost option for them than switching to some entirely different method of generation, wouldn't it?

Kind Regards, John

Taylortwocities · 29 Nov 2019

I have to smile at all these wild mega infrastructure change initiatives.
The current disaster is smart meters. “They” can’t even get that easy job
- swop a dumb box for a smarter box -
right. what hope is there to completely cable the uk in a new fibre infrastructure, or radically change the energy supply paradigm.
It ain’t gonna happen in a generation.

Keithmac · 29 Nov 2019

I would hazard a guess at least 95% of the houses down our street alone have gas central heating..

JohnW2 · 29 Nov 2019

Taylortwocities said:
It ain’t gonna happen in a generation.

... nor in 'a lifetime', which equates to a few 'generations'!

Kind Regards, John

Sureitsoff? · 30 Nov 2019

many years ago when myself and neighbours built our houses (six on total) I met a surveyor from the electric company(dno) and he asked about our heating choices. when I told him that 5 were to be oil and only one electric the look of relief due to not having to upgrade the supply just for six houses was amazing. and that was just six houses!!!

bernardgreen · 30 Nov 2019

JohnW2 said:
.. nor in 'a lifetime', which equates to a few 'generations'!

not to mention a few more generators.........

This was the power station for Walthamstow. right in the middle of the area it supplied, very little loss in the distrubtion system.

How much power is lost in these long distance power lines

IT Minion · 30 Nov 2019

bernardgreen said:
not to mention a few more generators.........

This was the power station for Walthamstow. right in the middle of the area it supplied, very little loss in the distrubtion system.

View attachment 177268

How much power is lost in these long distance power lines

View attachment 177269

About 7.7% apparently.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(Great_Britain)

Although that's for the entire national grid, so less than that for the HV lines. Even locally you've got some losses from the lower voltage bits and the need for backup power from other locations.

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replacing the nations gas boilers

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