Long shot - dropped kerb before PP existed?

Ruralgal · 27 Jan 2020

Hi

I live in a cottage that has parking in the garden to the side and a dropped kerb. The cottage was an old blacksmith's and originates from circa 1800 (or perhaps earlier). It's obvious (by looking at fittings in the wall) that the 'parking' area was probably used as an area to park carts, tether horses etc back in the day and was gated off for much of that time. I think the dropped kerb has been in existence probably since the early 1900s but cannot prove it. No matter what, I cannot trace any history of the PP being applied for, but looking at old photos I can definitely prove it's been there for 70 years at least.

I've contacted the council's Highways department who is only contactable by email

so I don't expect an answer any time soon. Just wondered if anyone knew...if a dropped kerb existed before planning rules existed does this mean that PP would never have been required? Is there a legal stipulation for this?

Thanks in advance

Mottie · 27 Jan 2020

Why are you asking? You say your house was built in 1800. Did it have planning permission? Building regs? There’s your answer.

noseall · 27 Jan 2020

Dropped kerbs are a Highways concern and nowt to do with planning per se, although they may end up a consequence thereof.
The footpath belongs to the pedestrian so anytime a vehicle crosses the footpath and it potentially endangers a pedestrian, the pedestrians have the right of way. Even if you are entering or leaving your house or filling station, in your car etc.

Are your rights to a dropped kerb being revoked due to a school or summat similar?

Ruralgal · 27 Jan 2020

Thanks for trying to help, but no it's nothing like that noseall. My deeds state that my neighbour has rights of access across the 'footways' in my garden. I'm trying to argue that my drive isn't and never has been a footway - it's always been parking for cars of carts (used to be a smithy). The PP docs for the dropped kerb would have been great to support my case in detailing how long the kerb drop had been in existence, and therefore how long it had been a drive....if that makes sense. It's nothing to do with anything on the public footpath tbh. I'm not wording myself very well but I cannot find the PP, the kerb's been dropped for over at least 20 years. I just don't want her to come back and argue we don't have PP for the kerb and ergo it's a path.

The council have maintained it to be honest so they would have jumped on us if it wasn't genuine by now I suspect lol.

^woody^ · 27 Jan 2020

A drive is a footway.

In this context, unless a path is specifically denoted, the neighbour would have the right to walk the 'route' not specifically any purpose made or specific footpath.

sircerebus666 · 28 Jan 2020

So basically you are trying to stop your neighbour walking on your land?

All you will do by going down this path is alienate your neighbour and that's something nobody would recommend

mattylad · 28 Jan 2020

ask in your own thread...
This on'es not got to the Brexit bits yet so has time to run.

Ruralgal · 28 Jan 2020

sircerebus666 said:
So basically you are trying to stop your neighbour walking on your land?

All you will do by going down this path is alienate your neighbour and that's something nobody would recommend

She's the one that alienated us! Everything was fine until she demanded she come and go through our electric gate without notifying us. Our deeds state she has a right of access from the house to the outhouse she owns in our garden by 'defined pathways only' and only for the purpose of going between the house and outbuilding. I am fine with this because she has unimpeded access from her back door to the outbuilding. However she is demanding she has 24/7 access through the electric gate which leads onto a very busy and dangerous A road...ergo she can open the gate letting our small children and our dogs get into the road willy nilly. We have said we have no problem allowing her in and out on request if she has large items to move or if she wants to store her bike in the outhouse and we have done in the past but she's not happy with this. We've done everything to be nice to her (cleared her drains when they were blocked, swept up her leaves - we live next to a wood - jetted her paths) and she has the added bonus of our extra security we paid £11k for (the houses were burgled from the back a few weeks before we moved in - now this can't happen due to the presence of the gate).

Her solicitors argue that we erected a gate and we shouldn't have (this was 3 years before she moved in!), but we have historical photographic proof there has always been a gate in that location.

To be honest, you don't know the girl so don't comment on what she's like! She's being overtly awkward just because she's used to getting what she wants. She's even demanding stuff that's not in the deeds and refusing to admit she doesn't have the right. She hasn't cleaned, let alone used the outbuilding in over 1.5 years so she is doing this to alienate us!

Ruralgal · 28 Jan 2020

mattylad said:
ask in your own thread...
This on'es not got to the Brexit bits yet so has time to run.

sircerebus666 · 28 Jan 2020

Ruralgal said:
To be honest, you don't know the girl so don't comment on what she's like! She's being overtly awkward just because she's used to getting what she wants. She's even demanding stuff that's not in the deeds and refusing to admit she doesn't have the right. She hasn't cleaned, let alone used the outbuilding in over 1.5 years so she is doing this to alienate us!

Erm I didn't mention everything about this girl (I didn't even know it was a girl) so don't put words in my mouth

It seems that your neighbour has rights of access across your property according to your deeds and what you say and you are being awkward about it.

As this has clearly already turned nasty and you have got solicitors involved , all that will happen is you will line the pockets of those solicitors and have them laughing all the way to the bank

I wish you good luck in whatever it is you are trying to achieve

^woody^ · 28 Jan 2020

Ruralgal said:
Her solicitors argue that we erected a gate and we shouldn't have (this was 3 years before she moved in!)

Rights of access run with the land not the person.

^woody^ · 28 Jan 2020

Mottie said:
Sorry to jump in here but I have a drive related question. A good mate of mine lives in a semi-detached house. Both he and his non-adjoined neighbour had a full width drive for each property. There is no fence or barrier dividing the two drives although there is a line of bricks set in the concrete up the middle line. They both have garages in their rear gardens accessible via the drives. About 7 years ago, his non-attached neighbour built a side extension to his house, leaving only about 1 metre to the middle line of the two drives. The neighbour now accesses his garage by driving onto my mates half of the drive. I'm concerned that my mate will have problems in the future and said he should stick a fence up to stop him doing it otherwise the neighbour may get some right of way if he does it for a certain length of time - even if he sticks a temporary barrier up once a year so that the neighbour doesn’t have permanent access although I’m no legal expert. On the other hand, I could probably be talking total ball cocks! Trouble is, he gets on with the neighbour and doesn’t want to fall out with them unnecessarily. Does anyone know what the legal situation is in this case? Here’s a photo that shows what I mean.

View attachment 182283

Yes that neighbour could acquire rights of acces via prescription after 20 years of regular use of the drive. In fact the neigbour is in a bit of a precarious postion if you mate ever sold the house

This can be dealt with simply and without falling out in one of sevaral ways (blocking the drive is probably not one of best methods), but best see a legal advisor - or if this service is on the house insurance ask them.

geraldthehamster · 28 Jan 2020

Knock down the outbuilding when she's away and deny all knowledge

Ruralgal · 28 Jan 2020

geraldthehamster said:
Knock down the outbuilding when she's away and deny all knowledge

Ha ha yes. Unfortunately we own the 'other half' of the outbuilding so can't get away with that one, and we have CCTV.

Oddly enough, the other neighbour who previously owned the second lot of outbuildings we had them over a barrel as they'd moved their back door, meaning that the only rear exit to the outbuildings were via the drive...which THEIR solicitor considered not to be part of the ROW. Sadly as it didn't go to court it's not classed as a precedent.

mrrusty · 29 Jan 2020

you might also want to post this in the ROW forum on gardenlaw

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Long shot - dropped kerb before PP existed?

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