installing main earth bonding conductors to gas and water services

JohnW2 · 24 Sep 2020

EFLImpudence said:
Yes, but then up until and including the BYB 544.1.2 said "insulating section" and required the Main Bond to be on the customers side of that insulating section.

Indeed - and, as so often discussed, that was always ridiculous (and, were it not for the almost inevitable 'incidental earthing' of internal pipework, could even have been dangerous).

EFLImpudence said:
The gas people presumably want it but if there is still a metal gas pipe entering the premises then that will still require a Main Bond ....

... but not if the downstream end of the 'insulating section' is above ground or, even if within the property, so close to the entry point that it was 'not practicable' (nor, in common sense terms, necessary) to bond it upstream of that insulated part.

EFLImpudence said:
... - but the electricians will probably not realise and bond in the wrong place as they always have.

Sadly, that will probably remain so in many cases. As above, I would be concerned about this were it not for the fact that the internal pipework will almost always be earthed, even if not main bonded - so unnecessary/inappropriate bonding probably very rarely creates an additional hazard.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 24 Sep 2020

EFLImpudence said:
Mmmmm. From your link: "To summarise, the two main reasons for insulating inserts/insulation joints in metallic pipework are to prevent corrosion and to prevent pipes being used as a path for fault current. Also, the main protective bonding requirements in BS 7671:2008+A3:2015 are understood to be written on the expectation that insulating inserts /insulation joints are installed in metallic service pipework." Or maybe not.

Indeed not!

It sounds like a case of someone else failing to understand something which does not say what it should have said (because the person who wrote it did not to understand what he/she should have been writing)

Kind Regards, John

HawkEye244 · 24 Sep 2020

EFLImpudence said:
If you live out in the wilds and have TT earthing - an earth rod - then smaller bonding conductor might be used.

Don't you have any Main Bonding now?

It's not a rural TT setup. I live in the city
There is some bonding now but one of items on a recent EICR states that the gas and water need 'bonding' and what I am hoping to do is to is run the cables as this is the most labour intensive part of the job and saves having the spark pulling up boards. The property is old and I would like to avoid this if I can run the cables myself.
I'm quite happy for the spark to fit the connectors.
If I go to the trouble of running the cable I want to make sure it's sized correctly as the gas meter and water meter are as far from the CU as it's possible to be hence why I was curious to know whether I can use a terminal block to reduce two earthing cables down to one.
I'd also like to know if the connectors have to be fitted where they can be inspected? This will affect how I run the cable, as if they don't I can have the spark fit the connectors internally. If they need to be inspected I will have to have them fitted externally on the consumer side of the gas meter
Many thanks

JohnW2 · 24 Sep 2020

HawkEye244 said:
There is some bonding now but one of items on a recent EICR states that the gas and water need 'bonding' ....

That's a bit vague. Are you saying that incoming water and gas pipes currently both have bonding but that the bonding conductor/cable is not of an adequate size, or what?

HawkEye244 said:
If I go to the trouble of running the cable I want to make sure it's sized correctly as the gas meter and water meter are as far from the CU as it's possible to be ...

Are the gas and water meters close to one another?

HawkEye244 said:
... hence why I was curious to know whether I can use a terminal block to reduce two earthing cables down to one.

As we have been discussing recently, it is certainly possible (and very common) to have a single bonding conductor/cable. However, you don't need to use a 'terminal block - as we have been discussing, you just run the cable first to the closest pipe, then onwards from there to the other one.

HawkEye244 said:
I'd also like to know if the connectors have to be fitted where they can be inspected? This will affect how I run the cable, as if they don't I can have the spark fit the connectors internally. If they need to be inspected I will have to have them fitted externally on the consumer side of the gas meter

Any joints in electrical cables have to be available for inspection unless they are of a special 'maintenance-free' type or are achieved by means such as crimping or soldering. However, as above, you probably would not need to have any joints.

Kind Regards, John

securespark · 24 Sep 2020

JohnW2 said:
Any joints in electrical cables have to be available for inspection unless they are of a special 'maintenance-free' type

Another reason to run the bonding conductor through the clamp's terminal unbroken. I have come across many clamps that you can't get to as since they were fitted, a unit or boxing has made in inaccessible.

JohnW2 · 25 Sep 2020

securespark said:
Another reason to run the bonding conductor through the clamp's terminal unbroken. I have come across many clamps that you can't get to as since they were fitted, a unit or boxing has made in inaccessible.

Undoubtedly true - but that situation is, presumably, in itself, non-compliant with BS7671, since the connection between the conductor and the clamp (hence pipe would presumably qualify as a 'screwed joint' - which therefore should be 'accessible'.

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with you. If a bonding conductor goes to one pipe and then onto another, it makes complete sense to have it as an unbroken conductor - and that is, I would imagine, what most people would do (and probably fractionally easier than terminating two conductors into one clamp!).

Kind Regards, John

Taylortwocities · 25 Sep 2020

HawkEye244 said:
I would like to avoid this if I can run the cables myself.
I'm quite happy for the spark to fit the connectors.

@HawkEye244
If you are running tha cables yourself, without guidance, or prior agreement from your sparky, don’t even think of joints etc.

Run separate 10mm bonding cables, one for gas, one for water.
Then there cannot be any arguement when your electrician feels that is the only way it should be done. It’s not that much more cable.

securespark · 25 Sep 2020

JohnW2 said:
Undoubtedly true - but that situation is, presumably, in itself, non-compliant with BS7671, since the connection between the conductor and the clamp (hence pipe would presumably qualify as a 'screwed joint' - which therefore should be 'accessible'.

Which it was when it was done, but has since been made inaccessible by a carpenter, kitchen fitter, DIYer etc........

JohnW2 · 25 Sep 2020

securespark said:
Which it was when it was done, but has since been made inaccessible by a carpenter, kitchen fitter, DIYer etc........

That's an interesting one!

However, it's surely the case that if something is non-compliant (now), then it is non-compliant (now), regardless of whether or not it ever was compliant in the past and, if it were once compliant, regardless of who was subsequently responsible for rendering it non-compliant, isn't it?

Kind Regards, John

securespark · 25 Sep 2020

JohnW2 said:
That's an interesting one!

Not really. There must be millions of cases of this having happened.

JohnW2 · 25 Sep 2020

securespark said:
Not really. There must be millions of cases of this having happened.

I meant that the fact that you'd made the comment was "interesting"!

As you imply, there are countless occasions of something that was compliant when an electrician designed and installed it becoming non-compliant because of the subsequent actions of someone (another electrician, a carpenter, DIYer or whatever). However, as we've often discussed, it is just not possible to design and install anything electrical which is immune from potential future stupidity (or ignorance, or incompetence) of others!

Kind Regards, John

SUNRAY · 25 Sep 2020

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread. When I moved here in 1994 the gas was not bonded despite the fact there is only a couple of inches between the 2 services, I bonded both incoming and my pipes as they disappear into the concrete floor. At the time there was confusion on which side it should be and complaints from gas workers of PD across the pipes with the meter removed.
Yesterday our incoming gas pipe was replaced by pulling in a flexible plastic pipe in through the existing 1" steel pipe. In view of more recent events I intended removing the bond to the incoming pipe. However despite now having a plastic supply pipe there is no insulating section, the new brass fitting is firmly screwed onto the existing steel pipe, [the other end of which now stops some 500mm short of the gas main under the public footpath].

So now I read what's been posted here and I'm getting more confused.

JohnW2 · 25 Sep 2020

SUNRAY said:
Yesterday our incoming gas pipe was replaced by pulling in a flexible plastic pipe in through the existing 1" steel pipe. In view of more recent events I intended removing the bond to the incoming pipe. However despite now having a plastic supply pipe there is no insulating section, the new brass fitting is firmly screwed onto the existing steel pipe, [the other end of which now stops some 500mm short of the gas main under the public footpath]. .... So now I read what's been posted and I'm getting more confused.

Extraneous-conductive-parts have got nothing specifically to do with water or gas. If something metal which has at least some parts underground enters your property, that is an extraneous-c-p which needs to be bonded - so, if that old steel pipe actually shows itself within your property, it needs to be bonded, regardless of what is inside it.

Kind Regards, John

SUNRAY · 25 Sep 2020

JohnW2 said:
Extraneous-conductive-parts have got nothing specifically to do with water or gas. If something metal which has at least some parts underground enters your property, that is an extraneous-c-p which needs to be bonded - so, if that old steel pipe actually shows itself within your property, it needs to be bonded, regardless of what is inside it.

Kind Regards, John

Yes I agree with that but Am I wrong to think some have stated to only bond the customer side?
Edit: Not only here but in other threads too.

EFLImpudence · 25 Sep 2020

SUNRAY said:
I bonded both incoming and my pipes as they disappear into the concrete floor.

Ok. That seems correct.

At the time there was confusion on which side it should be and complaints from gas workers of PD across the pipes with the meter removed.

They don't understand.
There would only be PD with the meter removed if the bond was on the consumer side. The error of gas people and also in the regulations until recently.

Yesterday our incoming gas pipe was replaced by pulling in a flexible plastic pipe in through the existing 1" steel pipe. In view of more recent events I intended removing the bond to the incoming pipe. However despite now having a plastic supply pipe there is no insulating section, the new brass fitting is firmly screwed onto the existing steel pipe, [the other end of which now stops some 500mm short of the gas main under the public footpath].
So now I read what's been posted and I'm getting more confused.

Not entirely certain of the position of things but the steel pipe must still be the extraneous-c-p.

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installing main earth bonding conductors to gas and water services

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