Johnson Is So Useless

jonbey said:

Could you share those figures? I didn't think winter death figures would be release until after winter ...

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I was referring to deaths up to end of last year. Will have to wait and see how this winter compares.

jonbey said:

people deniers.

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A step too far?

ReganAndCarter said:

I was referring to deaths up to end of last year. Will have to wait and see how this winter compares.

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Weekly data is available, so you can tally that up. Summary of the first week of January:

*note, this dispels the myth that nobody is dying from flu.

Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...andandwalesprovisional/weekending8january2021


so, deaths were certainly up that week.

The ONS shares all this info, take a look and it might change your opinion about coronavirus

It makes me chuckle that what people think is fact is what they hear off the media or read in the papers lol. Certain people on here seem to think they are experts because they read it in the media so believe certain aspects of stories.In my job in the last few months I was in a specific hospital in the south west doing some commercial work . This specific hospital was on the news as being jam packed with COVID patients. I spent 6 days in there doing work. Many times I was right outside certain COVID wards and there where 3 people in there. Not the 56 people the media said.I also have someone who works in a different hospital in my street who has said the statistics you read in the media are MASSIVELY exaggerated. One old lady was taken to her hospital with heart problems coming towards the end of her life,whilst in hospital she passed away and it was put on record as Covid.SHE NEVER DIED OF COVID.she died from heart problems that were ongoing in her life. I’m sick to death of people reading in a paper about stuff and that means it’s fact.This post will get deleted because all the idiots believe this bull . I WILL NOT BE GETTING A VACCINE end of. I’m not putting an unknown substance in my arm that was rushed through without the proper precautions etc. The medical companies knew that the government where desperate so rushed through something that hasn’t been tested properly then sold it to the government for billions of pounds and people are taking it. All these idiots blaming boris when he is just passing on the info from the medical people. People are dyeing all over the world from other things and there is no panic or hysteria.it’s the media that has created this hysteria. Astonished how people think something that they say can kill you can take hold of you and end your life sometimes with no symptoms at all lol.I’m sorry but something strong enough to kill you would create symptoms. If the newspaper said tomorrow that the world was gonna end you would all believe it. Get a bloody grip. I’m more concerned about the people with other illnesses like cancer who are being ignored their treatment due to this unnecessary hysteria.Specific countries in this world are back to normal because there media behaves a lot different than ours. (Reminds me of the BLM story were a woman in New York was supposed to have mown down loads of BLM protesters because she was unhappy with them and she was racist,low and behold somebody released a video showing how she was threatened in her car,and they started to smash her car whilst her baby was with her and panicked and sped off. Guess what nothing ever reported again. The media are all liers and it baffles me that people believe every word they read or hear

jonbey said:

You're right. Population was much lower. Spanish flu killed about 50 million people. World population was about 1,800,000,000 (estimate), and it infected about 1 in 3 people, so around
50,000,000 of 600,000,000 died, or

So today ... we'd expect around 580,000,000 people to die.

While the UK did not have a government enforced lockdown, many other countries did. And people were wearing masks and generally not going out and mingling.

But it is generally thought that a lack of government planning was the cause of so many deaths. As I said, we really should try to learn from history.

One thing we really don't know about coronavirus is, how many people would be dead if the world did not go into lockdown? Almost 100,000 Brits are dead after less than a year, with no lockdown, that could easily be 10 times more.

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That's an awful lot of wild assumptions there!

Any proof of what you 'believe' is the truth that we should learn from?

After all it wasn't the 'Spanish Flu', it was the 'American Flu'!

And first you claim that there was a 'lockdown' back then, and now you claim a 'lack of government planning'...

Which is it?

sxturbo said:

you took 1 bit of my post and ignored the examples of idiots i gave, i suppose its just easier to blame the government.

as i said there has been errors made, but the biggest issue is the public in keeping it spreading.

i also agree with other sentiments that the borders should have been locked with proper protocols in place.

Angola for instance insist on a covid negative cert before your departure, no certificate you don't get on the plane. Once you get into the country, they take your passport and the hotel keeps you in your room for 10 days. After this you are free to go and get your passport and roam the country. As far as i'm aware this has largely worked, with only 19000 cases to date and 444 deaths to date.

Australia and new zealand seem to be pretty on top of it aswell.

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I did take one bit of your comment, which was the salient point of your argument, and still is.
I explained how the ludicrous policies are pointless when they are so easily avoided.
I gave the example of the current entry requirement for travellers into the UK, and how easy it is to circumvent the requirement.
I'll repeat it for you:
I have to travel to UK, AAHHH! I have a test which came back positive. Just travel anyway, get fined £500, then be allowed to melt away into the crowd!. Not to mention the mingling I've done on the voyage and probably infected half the other passengers who unwittingly and proudly flash their negative certificates at border guards. Those infected passengers with negative certificates then melt into the crowds.

You gave the example of Angola, which UK should have copied. How difficult is it?
It isn't just Angola, most Australasian countries do the same.

The government is to blame and BJ is the PM of that government.

Lower said:

The other countries you refer to were either significantly smaller by population, significantly larger by area or have disturbingly controlling governmental regimes. I'd be interested to know how you think you could beat it in a matter of weeks in this country.

Flu is a virus and mutates year on year. It kills lots of vulnerable people and we vaccinate accordingly, although flu does not seem to be as infectious or as dangerous as Covid.

There is no guarantee that the vaccine will keep the virus at bay, there is never any guarantee of anything. But the strong likelihood is that it will.

Are you anti-vax?

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You don't have to be disturbingly controlling for very long.
The size of the population nor the area of the country are significant factors. The population density is a significant factor. Places like Vietnam, Cambodia etc probably have significantly higher density populations.
Covid is a virus and has the ability to mutate year on year.

No, of course I'm not anti-vax, Surely nothing in my comments comes anywhere near to suggesting I am. I repeat for your benefit: I think it's a mistake to put so much reliance on the vaccine. As much or more effort and reliance should be put on the other measures. They're proven to work.

ellal said:

That's an awful lot of wild assumptions there!
Any proof of what you 'believe' is the truth that we should learn from?

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The only assumption is that with a larger population the death rate and rate of spread would be the same, ie. 3% and 33%

ellal said:

After all it wasn't the 'Spanish Flu', it was the 'American Flu'!

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Petty. You're sounding like Trump now. We all call it Spanish Flu, to change the name would cause confusion.

ellal said:

That's an awful lot of wild assumptions there!
And first you claim that there was a 'lockdown' back then, and now you claim a 'lack of government planning'...
Which is it?

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It was global. Different places had different rules. Many UK schools closed. Other counties did things differently. Most screwed up, this 50 million deaths.


The only important fact is that it killed 50 million people, and all the advice given at the time, of distancing, closing schools, wearing masks etc. helped reduce its spread, and the same advice is relevant today for coronavirus.

One of the places that faired best in the world against Spanish / American flu was New York. Why? Because they had just gone through 20 years of tuberculosis and was well equipped and skilled to deal with it already - and the people knew it was important to follow the rules.

But, you don't want to hear that, you just want to ignore the experts, ignore the statistics, ignore what is happening in the hospitals around the country, and pretend everything is OK and just a big scam, so there really is little point in talking about it any more.

Brigadier said:

Presuming :

Seven billion people adhere faithfully to the restrictions (can't / won't happen : carers, healthcare, food production and distribution, essential utilities, security, to name but a few) ;
The only hosts are humans.

Not gonna happen in reality.

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For sure, essential workers continue to work. That happens in other countries.
But the guidance/regulations are more strict, better communicated, more precise and less easily circumvented.
In addition the penalties for not following the guidance are usually more severe.

Bobby Dazzler said:

You don't have to be disturbingly controlling for very long.
The size of the population nor the area of the country are significant factors. The population density is a significant factor. Places like Vietnam, Cambodia etc probably have significantly higher density populations.
Covid is a virus and has the ability to mutate year on year.

No, of course I'm not anti-vax, Surely nothing in my comments comes anywhere near to suggesting I am. I repeat for your benefit: I think it's a mistake to put so much reliance on the vaccine. As much or more effort and reliance should be put on the other measures. They're proven to work.

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I ask the anti-vax question purely because i don't understand what appears to be your concern with relying on the vaccine as a route out of this mess.

What other measures do you think we should be applying? I'm interested to know what is proven to work elsewhere and discuss whether it would work here.

Lower said:

I ask the anti-vax question purely because i don't understand what appears to be your concern with relying on the vaccine as a route out of this mess.

What other measures do you think we should be applying? I'm interested to know what is proven to work elsewhere and discuss whether it would work here.

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Sigh! I have already explained and posted several times, the current other measures have been proven to be effective when they are effectively applied.

ellal said:

But hey if you are happy to trot up and hold out your arm obediently

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I got the flu jab last November, next day i was really ill, i thought it was caused by a reaction to the flu jab, it turned out i had coronavirus.
As i have had coronavirus i should have some level of immunity but i am still gonna get the corona jab just to make sure as this disease is not very pleasant.
The Corona vaccine may or may not have the efficacy claimed but the efficacy of Covid 19 as a killer is not in doubt.

Bobby Dazzler said:

In addition the penalties for not following the guidance are usually more severe.

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Do severe penalties only work when they suit your argument then?

Bobby Dazzler said:

I think we can be safely assured that penalty, punishment or the threat of it does not, on its own, deter crime.
Otherwise, other countries with equally harsh penalties would also have low crime rates.

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Brigadier said:

Do severe penalties only work when they suit your argument then?

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No. You will notice I did say, at the time, that severe penalties on their own do not reduce crime.
At the time weren't we discussing the more severe levels of crime, not just the anti-social actions that people could easily avoid?
Indeed we were discussing capital punishment. I'm not suggesting that the punishment for not respecting the measures against Covid infections should be capital punishment.

Of course, for some determined conspiracy theorists, the threat of penalty for flouting any restrictions night not guarantee their compliance, which kind of supports my original statement. That is, that those determined to break the law are not deterred by the penalties.

Bobby Dazzler said:

Sigh! I have already explained and posted several times, the current other measures have been proven to be effective when they are effectively applied.

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I've read from the start of the thread and i don't see your solution other than references to lockdowns and travel restrictions that are already inplace.

Is it just a more strongly enforced lockdown?