Old 'KMF' on EICR

JohnW2 · 14 Mar 2021

SimonH2 said:
And I'd agree with him. Consider this, a typical CU only needs a common pattern screwdriver to open it - few people don't have access to a screwdriver that will fit well enough to open it, yet we don't consider that a problem.

Yes, that (and what you go on to say) all makes sense. However, it take me back to the question I asked flameport'. He asserted that "Cupboards are not enclosures" but, in terms of what we are saying, a cupboard accessed with a key would seem to be as 'secure' as many things which we would, without question, accept as an 'enclosure'.

Mind you, I can see a problem with that view. It could, for example be a whole room (or, I suppose if one wanted be silly, a whole house!) that could only be accessed with a key, but I don't think we would be happy for that room to be full of exposed single-insulated (not sheathed) conductors! ... so it's perhaps not totally straightforward.

Kind Regards, John

RF Lighting · 14 Mar 2021

JohnW2 said:
Mind you, I can see a problem with that view. It could, for example be a whole room (or, I suppose if one wanted be silly, a whole house!) that could only be accessed with a key, but I don't think we would be happy for that room to be full of exposed single-insulated (not sheathed) conductors! ... so it's perhaps not totally straightforward.

Like in a substation? Lots of open live LV connections in a room accessed with a key. (lets not get into an ESQCR vs BS7671 debate!)

JohnW2 · 14 Mar 2021

RF Lighting said:
Like in a substation? Lots of open live LV connections in a room accessed with a key. (lets not get into an ESQCR vs BS7671 debate!)

Yes, I thought of (and nearly mentioned) that. However, I imagine that you would agree that it would not be acceptable to have a room in a dwelling (or even a commercial setting) which was full of touchable 'single-insulated' conductors, just because a key was required to get into the room, wouldn't you?

Kind Regards, John

RF Lighting · 14 Mar 2021

I don't think it would be a good idea in a domestic dwelling, but in a commercial property, I'm not really sure to be honest. We have cabinets where I work which you could climb inside if you really felt that way out which contain unshrouded 3 phase busbars and can be accessed with a single key whilst energised.

Of course there are safe working procedures and access to the key is restricted, but it's not at all uncommon, especially in heavy industry.

I'm trying to think if I've ever been in a room which contained open live parts other than a substation, and I honestly can't remember.

JohnW2 · 14 Mar 2021

RF Lighting said:
I don't think it would be a good idea in a domestic dwelling, but in a commercial property, I'm not really sure to be honest. We have cabinets where I work which you could climb inside if you really felt that way out which contain unshrouded 3 phase busbars and can be accessed with a single key whilst energised. Of course there are safe working procedures and access to the key is restricted, but it's not at all uncommon, especially in heavy industry. I'm trying to think if I've ever been in a room which contained open live parts other than a substation, and I honestly can't remember.

Yes, but to repeat, I was talking about domestic dwellings, not heavy (or even light) industry.

You surely would not consider it acceptable for me to have exposed single-insulated cables all over the place in a room in a domestic dwelling which happened to have a key-operated lock on the door, would you?

Kind Regards, John

RF Lighting · 14 Mar 2021

JohnW2 said:
I was talking about domestic dwellings, not heavy (or even light) industry.

JohnW2 said:
a room in a dwelling (or even a commercial setting) which was full of touchable 'single-insulated' conductors,

You surely would not consider it acceptable for me to have exposed single-insulated cables all over the place in a room in a domestic dwelling which happened to have a key-operated lock on the door, would you?

It depends. If it just happened to be a lockable room then of course that would be unsafe. If however it was a room designed for the purpose, and access to the key was restricted to competent persons, then perhaps less so. You or I may want to have (or do have!) a home workshop with limited access due to certain electrical hazards.

JohnW2 · 14 Mar 2021

RF Lighting said:
It depends. If it just happened to be a lockable room then of course that would be unsafe. If however it was a room designed for the purpose, and access to the key was restricted to competent persons, then perhaps less so. You or I may want to have (or do have!) a home workshop with limited access due to certain electrical hazards.

Indeed, but I still wouldn't want to have single-insulated conductors around in my workshop, even if it were religiously locked when I wasn't using it, would you?

Anyway, we're 'drifting' (not for the first time

). What do you think about flameport's assertion which started all this - that "Cupboards are not [presumably he meant 'never can be'] enclosures"?'

Kind Regards, John

SUNRAY · 14 Mar 2021

JohnW2 said:
Indeed, but I still wouldn't want to have single-insulated conductors around in my workshop, even if it were religiously locked when I wasn't using it, would you?

Anyway, we're 'drifting' (not for the first time ). What do you think about flameport's assertion which started all this - that "Cupboards are not [presumably he meant 'never can be'] enclosures"?'

Kind Regards, John

I've worked in many 'cupboards' specifically constructed for such use.

JohnW2 · 14 Mar 2021

SUNRAY said:
I've worked in many 'cupboards' specifically constructed for such use.

That was essentially the point I raised with flameport, since I do not personally think that his assertion that "Cupboards are not enclosures" is really adequate as a generalisation.

Kind Regards, John

seasickstevie · 15 Mar 2021

Thanks for all your comments. As John says, we've 'drifted'.

In my case, I have to come clean, and say that (despite my deceiving line of question), the mains in this particular job, not only is 3-phase (which I guess makes it more than your straight single 'domestic'), but there is no cupboard at all, just all stuck to the wall in a room off the family kitchen. No lock, just a door knob.

Fair to say, it's not a C3, but like flameport said C2. Looks like the old Wylex switches and BS-88s are going to have to go, and be replaced by a proper MEM (or similar) 'KMF', and the 16mm t&e terminated properly into the enclosure.

Time to have a talk with the landlord.

JohnW2 · 15 Mar 2021

seasickstevie said:
Thanks for all your comments. As John says, we've 'drifted'. In my case, I have to come clean, and say that (despite my deceiving line of question), the mains in this particular job, not only is 3-phase (which I guess makes it more than your straight single 'domestic')....

Fair enough, but I don't think that materially alters any of the discussion, does it? You only showed us one phase's worth, and I presume there is similar for the other two flats?

seasickstevie said:
... but there is no cupboard at all, just all stuck to the wall in a room off the family kitchen. No lock, just a door knob. ....

Ah. Maybe we shouldn't have believed you (and thereby possibly saved a couple of pages of discussion!!) when you wrote:

seasickstevie said:
..... As it's in the 'electric cupboard' , and only likely to be accessed by a 'competent person'(?) I was thinking maybe it could be a C3.

As well as rendering moot a lot of what has been discussed about 'cupboards', I think that probably greatly simplified things - and I would imagine that nearly all of us would agree that exposed single-insulated conductors in a room (not cupboard) as accessible and insecure as that probably would deserve a C2. Most of the debate has been about whether that would/should remain the case if it were a 'cupboard' (and opinions about that seem to vary).

Kind REgards, John

seasickstevie · 15 Mar 2021

JohnW2 said:
Most of the debate has been about whether that would/should remain the case if it were a 'cupboard' (and opinions about that seem to vary).

I was in effect trying to decide if I should just advise the property owner to get a cupboard built with a lock and leave it at that, or even just put a lock on the door. As he's virtually the only person ever going into the room I would suspect he would consider it an unnecessary 'bother', but also it seems most would agree that the mains would still be left in an unsatisfactory state.

I'll be telling him the mains needs an upgrade.

seasickstevie · 15 Mar 2021

JohnW2 said:
... You only showed us one phase's worth, and I presume there is similar for the other two flats?

JohnW2 · 15 Mar 2021

seasickstevie said:
I was in effect trying to decide if I should just advise the property owner to get a cupboard built with a lock and leave it at that, or even just put a lock on the door. As he's virtually the only person ever going into the room I would suspect he would consider it an unnecessary 'bother', but also it seems most would agree that the mains would still be left in an unsatisfactory state.

Fair enough - and, yes, I think that's what most people would say. Also, as you've seen, there would be varying opinions as to whether a 'cupboard' or a locked door would change anything. No-one has mentioned this, but having the isolating switches behind a locked door is, in itself, a 'risk'.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 15 Mar 2021

seasickstevie said:
<photo of 'everything'>

Thanks. That's what I expected - just multiple instances of what you showed us originally.

One other thing no-one else has yet mentioned - by having those isolators/switches downstream of the corresponding fuses, the fuses could only replaced 'live' (unless there is some way of isolating them upstream of what we have seen) - which would not really be acceptable.

Kind Regards, John

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Old 'KMF' on EICR

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