Other peoples work

333rocky333 · 26 Mar 2021

Called to a new site only completed 2 weeks ago, brand new Retail premises, Rcbo tripping out, took lid off and found this.
Must be a record for amount of lugs on a banjo bolt.
Then up in the trunking about 6 swa glands coupled together using Banjos

Screenshot_2021-03-26-22-06-13

333rocky333
26 Mar 2021

Screenshot_2021-03-26-21-59-53

333rocky333
26 Mar 2021

Screenshot_2021-03-26-22-07-27

333rocky333
26 Mar 2021

JohnW2 · 27 Mar 2021

333rocky333 said:
Must be a record for amount of lugs on a banjo bolt.

Yes, maybe!

Given their extensive use of Wagos for everything else, one can but assume that they did it 'deliberately'. Maybe they thought (perhaps even correctly?) that it was 'the lesser of evils' to have each of the CPCs 'bolted to the box', rather than sticking them all into Wago(s) and having just a ('single point of failure') flylead from that/them to the box?

Kind Regards, John

mattylad · 27 Mar 2021

Wow, that is a lot.
However ISTR that 60204 tells us that all bonding earths should go to the same point, so why should CPC's not?

SUNRAY · 27 Mar 2021

There just has to be a better way of doing all of that.

Actually I'll go further and say that's disgusting, I predict it's a house basher pretending he can do commercial work.

Simon35 · 27 Mar 2021

SUNRAY said:
There just has to be a better way of doing all of that.

Actually I'll go further and say that's disgusting, I predict it's a house basher pretending he can do commercial work.

A properly sized junction box, din rail, terminals and link bar. Might have cost a bit more in materials but surely quicker to install and a far better and maintainable result.

Why any customer would accept that is beyond me. Their invoice would remain untouched by me until such time as it was done properly.

oceansoul · 27 Mar 2021

It looks like there is din rail in the back of each box. Could have used some din terminals and links and made th whole thing look decent.

Simon35 · 27 Mar 2021

mattylad said:
Wow, that is a lot.
However ISTR that 60204 tells us that all bonding earths should go to the same point, so why should CPC's not?

Not sure what 60204 has got to do with an installation in a retailer.

JohnW2 · 27 Mar 2021

SUNRAY said:
There just has to be a better way of doing all of that.

That's probably the first reaction of many/most of us.

However, as I implied, I think that any 'better' ways would probably inevitably reduce the 'directness' of connection of each of the CPCs to the box/banjo, so one might have to question in what sense (other than 'aesthetically') it was 'better', rather than (electrically) 'worse', wouldn't one?

Kind Regards, John

Simon35 · 27 Mar 2021

JohnW2 said:
That's probably the first reaction of many/most of us.

However, as I implied, I think that any 'better' ways would probably inevitably reduce the 'directness' of connection of each of the CPCs to the box/banjo, so one might have to question in what sense (other than 'aesthetically') it was 'better', rather than (electrically) 'worse', wouldn't one?

Kind Regards, John

Better in that another person can understand and maintain the whole thing.

Not sure of the point of the banjos in a steel box. Just connect all the cpc's to earth terms mounted on the din rail, like gazillions of other industrial installs.

SUNRAY · 27 Mar 2021

JohnW2 said:
That's probably the first reaction of many/most of us.

However, as I implied, I think that any 'better' ways would probably inevitably reduce the 'directness' of connection of each of the CPCs to the box/banjo, so one might have to question in what sense (other than 'aesthetically') it was 'better', rather than (electrically) 'worse', wouldn't one?

Kind Regards, John

Well Personally I'd have popped an earth bar in there, just like used in a CU. One lump of brass, one earth point.

JohnW2 · 27 Mar 2021

Simon35 said:
Better in that another person can understand and maintain the whole thing.

It's certainly pretty crowded - so that, as a separate and general point, a larger box might have been desirable. However, in terms of the point we're discussing, I can't really see how anyone could fail to understand a pile of G/Ys connected to a the box with a single nut/bolt.

Simon35 said:
Not sure of the point of the banjos in a steel box.

The banjos are obviously totally redundant, which suggests that the person who installed them had a limited ability to think. However, that doesn't alter the fact that there is an argument for the CPCs all being connected directly to one point on the box, rather than introducing 'unnecessary' joints into them.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 27 Mar 2021

SUNRAY said:
Well Personally I'd have popped an earth bar in there, just like used in a CU. One lump of brass, one earth point.

Yep, that's another possible approach - but, again, that would introduce 'unnecessary' joints into all the CPCs.

Other than perhaps aesthetically (and the general crowding of the box, which would not be helped by any other handling of the CPC's) what is actually 'wrong' with what has been done?

Kind Regards, John

SUNRAY · 27 Mar 2021

Simon35 said:
Not sure of the point of the banjos in a steel box.

Sounds like another house basher to me

333rocky333 · 27 Mar 2021

SUNRAY said:
Sounds like another house basher to me

I am certainly not a housebasher, but i use banjos on steel boxes too, I always assumed it increased the brass to steel contact as opposed to not using one, nowadays i use earthing nuts which themselves have a greater brass surface area

SUNRAY · 27 Mar 2021

JohnW2 said:
Yep, that's another possible approach - but, again, that would introduce 'unnecessary' joints into all the CPCs.

I must be missing something, I see it as a reduction of joints and removing the reliance on one nut.

The biggest Risks with a single earth bolt I've found:
1, something being trapped when tightened [like a wire between the layers of lugs] and subsequent work moves the wire but the lose bolt is not discovered.
2, the installer struggles to get his pliers on the nut in amongst the lugs and doesn't tighten it adequatrly.

Other than perhaps aesthetically (and the general crowding of the box, which would not be helped by any other handling of the CPC's) what is actually 'wrong' with what has been done?

Kind Regards, John

Best practice is my answer. However when I posted this:

The comments didn't agree when I suggested it would have 'complied' if it was in a box

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