DIY gas thread - I'm confused

@ericmark im not sure what you’re getting at with the eicr? What exactly do you need to prove? The boiler is 230vac or any control?

Yes I would also agree with @Madrab in the main I am not allowed to work on boilers so insurance covers, and it is not the fuel which is the problem, it is the pressure involved, one of the boilers at work is super heated but most are just around 150 PSI but that can do a lot of damage, if some one came to work and said "I am gas safe I can work on that" he would be told not until you produce your pressure vessel certificates. There may well be coal gas around, but that is nothing compared with steam pressure.

I am sure years ago we did have boilers for central heating, but I have not seen one for years on domestic, in work yes total loss steam is used to heat the carriages, but if a boiler was to boil in the home you would likely say there is a fault. The casing of a boiler is nothing to do with gas fuel, it is same if coal, coke, charcoal, oil or gas, we want to stop combustion gases getting into the room.

As an inspector we should check cables are not being damaged, and if one can see all cables carefully cleated as they go up to boiler in real terms there is no real need to look further, however if one sees the cables are not cleated and the FCU end you find for example no earth sleeve, or find cables where earth has been used for line, then clearly one must check the boiler, and see if in the boiler JB glands are fitted and earth sleeves fitted.

If you look at pictures posted on these pages it is clear how many times earth sleeve missing and green/yellow cables used for line. In an ideal world would not need to check, but it is far from ideal and again and again boiler wiring looks like a birds nest.

denso13 said:

With respect, there in no need to assume, it is written down in black and white.

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What is, that one can be competent without having done a course, or not?
I thought we'd established that a DIYer can legally work on his own system (the question of competence only arising in the event of a problem). With ref to removing and replacing a panel, that would be at the lower end of gas work IMO. Obviously the situation is different for paid work and commercial systems, which some posts refer to.

fixitflav said:

I thought we'd established that a DIYer can legally work on his own system

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No we haven't, or I certainly haven't. A DIYer can if they prove they are competent (before they start) and it is laid down how this can be done.

The point made by others is that you won't be found out if you don't blow your house up. That may be correct but nevertheless, if you can't prove competence, you are breaking the law by doing DIY gas work.

I am actually only following what the legislation and other documents say, not making up other things or interpreting it as something completely different.

I have said before the ACOP document is for guidance only but demonstrates how you can comply with the law. You are free to show some other way of compliance with the law if you do not follow this "However, the Code has a special legal status. If you are prosecuted for breach of health and safety law, and it is proved that you did not follow the relevant provisions of the Code, you will need to show that you have complied with the law in some other way or a Court will find you at fault"

Here a a few clauses from the ACOP....

"Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member of an approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and relevant to that work."

"Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge and experience to carry out the job in hand safely, and ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition for use. Knowledge must be kept up to date with changes in the law, technology and safe working practice."

"Gas work should only be undertaken: (a) by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe gas work should be recognised by the industry’s standards setting body; or (b) in the case of a currently or previously registered person, where they have proved competence through a certification scheme; or (c) for those working at premises that fall outside the scope of the Regulations (see regulation 2(4) and associated guidance), by a person who has successfully completed an appropriate full training course followed by assessment of competence."

Training should be of a standard to enable a gas engineer to achieve competence in the safe installation, purging, commissioning, testing, servicing, maintenance, repair, disconnection, modification and dismantling of the gas systems, fittings and appliances with which they are working. This should include an adequate knowledge of: (a) relevant associated services such as water and electricity; (b) the potential for exposure to asbestos; (c) the dangers these may give rise to; (d) the precautions to take.

Again, you could stand up in court and say you didn't do any of the above but became competent by doing something else, whatever that may be.

I am competent to work on steam systems 650 psi, hp air systems 4000 psi, refrigerant systems, liquid oxygen, hydraulic systems 2000 psi, gas turbines and diesels as well as the machinery and systems that support them but I would not do any diy gas on my home or indeed any other.

denso13 said:

No we haven't, or I certainly haven't. A DIYer can if they prove they are competent (before they start) and it is laid down how this can be done.

The point made by others is that you won't be found out if you don't blow your house up. That may be correct but nevertheless, if you can't prove competence, you are breaking the law by doing DIY gas work.

I am actually only following what the legislation and other documents say, not making up other things or interpreting it as something completely different.

I have said before the ACOP document is for guidance only but demonstrates how you can comply with the law. You are free to show some other way of compliance with the law if you do not follow this "However, the Code has a special legal status. If you are prosecuted for breach of health and safety law, and it is proved that you did not follow the relevant provisions of the Code, you will need to show that you have complied with the law in some other way or a Court will find you at fault"

Here a a few clauses from the ACOP....

"Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member of an approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and relevant to that work."

"Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge and experience to carry out the job in hand safely, and ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition for use. Knowledge must be kept up to date with changes in the law, technology and safe working practice."

"Gas work should only be undertaken: (a) by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe gas work should be recognised by the industry’s standards setting body; or (b) in the case of a currently or previously registered person, where they have proved competence through a certification scheme; or (c) for those working at premises that fall outside the scope of the Regulations (see regulation 2(4) and associated guidance), by a person who has successfully completed an appropriate full training course followed by assessment of competence."

Training should be of a standard to enable a gas engineer to achieve competence in the safe installation, purging, commissioning, testing, servicing, maintenance, repair, disconnection, modification and dismantling of the gas systems, fittings and appliances with which they are working. This should include an adequate knowledge of: (a) relevant associated services such as water and electricity; (b) the potential for exposure to asbestos; (c) the dangers these may give rise to; (d) the precautions to take.

Again, you could stand up in court and say you didn't do any of the above but became competent by doing something else, whatever that may be.

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OK thanks for that, I think we've kicked this to death

Or this? Is it really a job to be doing in your own home if you aren't absolutely sure of any of it;

Appliances

Gas engineers carrying out installation, commissioning, maintenance or safety check work should ensure that:

(a) the appliance is suitable and, if necessary, adjusted for the type of gas being supplied;
(b) the appliance type is suitable for the room/location in which it is installed;
(c) the room or space where the appliance is located is adequately ventilated, and that the means of ventilation is suitable to provide a sufficient permanent supply of air to the appliance for safe combustion of gas. Account needs to be taken of:
(i) the volume of the room or space;
(ii) whether draught exclusion or new windows have been fitted, or other changes that could affect ventilation have been made to the room containing the gas appliance(s);
(iii) the location, type, size and configuration of airbricks and other permanent air vents;
(iv) whether air inlet ducts of room-sealed appliances are correctly located and remain unobstructed; and
(v) any other factors which could affect the adequacy of the air supply;
(d) there are adequate and suitable means for removing products of combustion from the appliance (see requirements in ‘Flues/chimneys’ in paragraphs 3–4);
(e) where it can be measured, the operating pressure and/or heat input of the appliance is correct. Information relating to the appropriate appliance settings is given in manufacturers’ installation/servicing instructions or on the appliance data badge;
(f) combustion performance is measured where specified by the manufacturer;
(g) the flame picture (ie appearance) is visually checked where possible to ensure that it is satisfactory;
(h) the appliance and associated gas fittings/safety devices (eg flame protection and fan proving systems) function safely;
(i) any case seals are forming an effective seal;
(j) the appliance is physically stable, securely fitted and properly connected to other gas fittings;
(k) the appliance is gas-tight.

"if you can't prove competence, you are breaking the law by doing DIY gas work."

This is the failing in all the debate.---No such law exists.
The law states simply that no person shall undertake gas work unless they are competent, yet the term competent is not defined. It does not require a DIYer (or anybody else) to prove such competence at that part of the regulations and there is no obligation on them to do so.
It would be for a prosecutor to prove to the satisfaction of a jury that the work in question was done by a person who was not competent.

There seems to have not been a case that could give a defining precedent.

There are other parts of the regulations that would be broken if the work was not conducted in a competent manner and therefore it would be easier to prove such an act and to charge on that crime than to prosecute on the basis of having not been competent to undertake the work.

The requlations around being on a competent persons register mainly affect an employer or business owner as to the type of person they may engage to undertake work for them.

In the absence of a definition, a DIYer would be assumed to be competent (ie not guilty) until proved otherwise. A competent (or assumed competent) person proves incompetent only when they behave in an incompetent manner.

I do agree that committing a crime remains an offence regardless of whether it is discovered or prosecuted , but such is hardly unusual
as only cases where there is a public interest are pursued.

TonyW2 said:

No such law exists

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Yes, it does.

TonyW2 said:

yet the term competent is not defined

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Well, it actually is.

That's enough for now.

Does a room sealed appliance such as a boiler require a well ventilated room ?

The electric ignition on a gas hob failed to spark. This was due to a build up of conductive deposits on the ceramic insulating tube around the ignition electrode on one of the four hobs.

Can a DIY person repair that fault ( by cleaning the ceramic ) or should the owner employ a registered person qualified to work on the ignition circuitry / components of a gas hob. ?

Yes it does seem a stupid question but it is a gas related item. Common sense is needed.

TonyW2 said:

"if you can't prove competence, you are breaking the law by doing DIY gas work."

This is the failing in all the debate.---No such law exists.

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Health and safety at work act 1974, which the gas safety installation (and use) regulations 1998 sit under this umbrella.

TonyW2 said:

The law states simply that no person shall undertake gas work unless they are competent, yet the term competent is not defined.

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denso13 said:

"Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge and experience to carry out the job in hand safely, and ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition for use. Knowledge must be kept up to date with changes in the law, technology and safe working practice."

"Gas work should only be undertaken: (a) by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe gas work should be recognised by the industry’s standards setting body; or (b) in the case of a currently or previously registered person, where they have proved competence through a certification scheme; or (c) for those working at premises that fall outside the scope of the Regulations (see regulation 2(4) and associated guidance), by a person who has successfully completed an appropriate full training course followed by assessment of competence."

Training should be of a standard to enable a gas engineer to achieve competence in the safe installation, purging, commissioning, testing, servicing, maintenance, repair, disconnection, modification and dismantling of the gas systems, fittings and appliances with which they are working. This should include an adequate knowledge of: (a) relevant associated services such as water and electricity; (b) the potential for exposure to asbestos; (c) the dangers these may give rise to; (d) the precautions to take.

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Seems quite clear about competence to me.

denso13 said:

Yes, it does.



Well, it actually is.

That's enough for now.

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Citations,please?

TonyW2 said:

Citations,please?

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See my reply above yours

TonyW2 said:

Citations,please?

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All through this thread which is widely off topic by now. Any particular questions?