Baxi Barcelona Lockout

anywhere near Kingswinford?...I'll be up there a couple of days next week.

Hello again,
To get a grant for a condensing boiler you need to contact a registered corgi installer and tell him you wopuld like to claim for one.

Ollski
Yes Im about 5-6 miles from Kingswinford.
Can I email you my mobile number to arrange?
Im not sure about the postings/contacts proceedure in giving out such info within the forum.
Cheers

I'm not too sure either twincam

Sounds the same as my boiler.I have had this problem since buying this boiler (Baxi Barcelona)in January 2002. Two weeks later the boiler failed completely.The install engineer could not fix the problem as there was a problem with the circuit boards. Eight days later when a Baxi engineer turned up he fitted new printed circuit boards that control ignition, fan etc.All went well with our new boiler untill march 2003 when the same type of fault occurred.Red flashing LED and lockout. Again I contacted my installer , who again could not rectify the fault.I contacted Baxi and this time had to pay £195 for them to attend.When they did attend over a week later (our engineers are really busy in the winter ? - nothing to do with waiting for the payment for the callout to go through then!)However if the parts replaced had been faulty originally , the payment would have been refunded.Apparently it was the same PCB's but because he changed some other parts we could not get a refund.
Winter came and nearly went , the little Baxi did what it was supposed to , .i.e. start , heat up water , heat up house , turn off. Well nearly , in feb 2003 the same symptoms and problems occurred.Once again Baxi insisted the £195 was paid up from and hurray , an engineer turned up (nearly a week later)
Apparently , after checking every single part , (it can't be the pcb's you had them replaced last year) he changed the harness that connects the pcbs."This should have been changed last time" said the engineer, "do I get a refund" I said. "Sorry" he said "I've replaced the harness , and thats a new part.
OK , I'm a reasonable man , but started to think that this boiler was jinxed. I decided to contact British Gas and see get the thing on contract.
British Gas engineer turned up and promptly disconnected the gas to the boiler. Apparently the diagnostic vent that is used for a probe to check for carbon monoxide was missing from the front of the flue.This had not been noticed by the Baxi engineer.The original cap (which I found on the floor of the airing cupboard) was plastic , it should have been brass.
This time ,Baxi came back and replaced the cap for the Brass one . Luckily he had one on his van , otherwise we would have been without ny form of central heating or hot water for another week. (we have two children by the way , so you can imagine what it was like keeping them warm , nd providing hot water to wash etc).
Now here we are again , before I can even get British Gas back the boiler fails. Once again the red LED flashes and the lockout comes on.
Again I have just paid £195 for a Baxi engineer to visit me , in three days time . I'll let you know how I get on.

Baxi Barcelona - WHAT YOUR ENGINEER WILL NOT TELL YOU SO READ IT ALL

THE UNIT HAS BEEN WORKING FOR 1.5 YEARS NOW WITHOUT A PROBLEM.

There is a lot of Cowboy's out there who will offer help with the repair of your Baxi Barcelona. A few has been to my house and charged £160 a time to mess about with a unit they did not understand. Unfortunately, 30 – 40 years in the business with one of these units’ means nothing , they have only been around since 1999 and is based on NEW ELECTRONIC TECHNOLOGY .

The Main issue is that this early model has so many faults with its Electronics and other parts a thorough overhaul is required to bring it up to the latest Baxi 100HE specification. Nothing else will work!

My first step was to analyse what has been changed between the very old unit of mine and the latest version. I found that all electronics and wire harnesses has been changed and now carry new part numbers. The Mechanics including the Heat Exchanger is still the same. I found the parts for the update rather expensive £250 to £300 pounds + labour (again who has the knowledge?) and a new unit sounded the better alternative.

An e-mail to Baxi Technical assistance put me in contact with their Fixed Price Repair service which looked the better proposition. In order to repair the Unit, Baxi visited about 5 times and I must agree with others that their service was initially abysmal. Thankfully, the Flow Control switch had them lost and everything was updated in the end to find the fault.

Baxi used OLD PARTS initially for the repair so you are not guaranteed the latest version electronics unless you know what to ask for and how argue your case. So you need to be armed with information and the below may help you to get ALL PARTS CHANGED for it to work well!

Also, consider whether or not to call them out now as you may not be able to test the function of the boiler properly within the warranty period.

Another aspect of their “service” is that they had my installation details on their database which clearly showed the unit as installed in 1999. My mistake was to say 1997 which cost an additional £50. Once again, a display of their abysmal service. This was later refunded.

After 4-5 call-outs during the Warranty Period, they completed the work on mine and told me its FULLY 100HE compliant (latest model). It has since worked like a doddle and I am fully satisfied with the unit I had delivered when released.

and by the way, reading some of the e-mails on this site, I feel like wanting to take legal action against Baxi if only the cost could be contained. ANY IDEAS ON HOW WE CAN GET JUSTICE?


Explosive Start:

Baxi Engineer initially blamed Gas Pressure. After Emergency visit from Transco this was not the issue.

Solved by another Baxi Engineer by changing the PCB to latest version. This restricts the Initial Gas Flow until the Boiler has fired and then it goes to full flow. Strapping Plug on the PCB controls this function and if not set will operate to old logic.

Baxi will tell you this is only needed for horizontal flues mine is vertical and extremely short and they never explained that one to me!

See Manual, available from Baxi Site, if you know what you are doing and want to check or set this function.

As for the 22mm pipe to boiler, mine is connected by a 15mm pipe the last 1.5 M and it ws suggested to be the problem. Rubbish! The issue is less gas not more!

Lock-Out

1st Required Modification

Baxi has uprated the High Voltage Cable between the PCB and Electrodes as it sparked to the Chassis leaving low/no capacity for the electrode to spark. Naturally, contributing to explosive start.

2nd Required Modification

Early control PCB has too sensitive logic and goes to Lock-out far too easy (red light on). THIS IS THE MAIN CAUSE TO TROUBLE and latest PCB will solve this issue. You know you have the correct version when you have:

* 4 Strapping Plugs on the Control PCB
* a function which will select 2 output levels using a strapping plug. The lower one is OK in my house which is "only" 250 sqm.
* and the critical low gas flow start mentioned above
* change to cycle logic so it test the water temp before igniting the boiler instead of the other way around. Also, cycle between tests has been extended slightly. Should do wonders for the life-length of those electrodes...
* Excessive Fan noise disappeared after the PCb was changed.

If you cannot adjust the variable Heating Output, I could not, the Control PCB is most likely the very old one (mine was a prototype since the unit was repaired when installed and spares not readily available).

3rd Required Modification

Early Flow Control Switch may when checked look OK but has gone High-Ohm for the PCB who interprete the signal as not water / pump-on. THIS IS VERY HARD TO ESTABLISH AND YOU ARE EASILY TRICKED. Boiler stops at the same point as a Condensate Trap failure. You can test as follows:

* Undo wire to Condensate trap and start boiler - if the unit still goes to lock out this is not it. Test time more than 24 hours.
* Ensure pump is working + water in system (God help you otherwise) then take off the connector from the Flow Switch and Short Circuit. Start Boiler and if it works after more than 24 hours, you have most likely found the culprit.

4th Required Modication

The Ignition PCB should be changed as it is not only the cable that causes lack of ignition nd the lock-out issue...


Uprated Door – 5th Required Modification

Connected to the explosive start, Baxi has uprated the door which should now have an edge at each side to give strength.

Uprated Condensating Trap – 6th Required Modification

A new trap should be fitted which has improved throughput to drain.

I believe that with the combination of updates, the Unit is now operating to specification and the trap has stopped blocking up. Will keep you updated as only time will tell on this one.


Finally

Once your Barcelona has been upgraded, you should have it serviced every 2 years officially. However, as for the British Gas Contract, sounds a good insurance to me for the time being as I still do not trust the unit fully.

Also, if it subsequently will not start and you have lock-out trouble ALWAYS open the Yellow Plug and empty the Condensate Trap (ensure you have something to catch the dirty water coming out). You may have to wait or open the unit to dry the trap at the electrode ensuring the unit is not live, of course. This is to ensure you do not pay call-out charges for something easy to correct! I noticed some advise elsewhere, so be careful with the plastic as a hair-dryer can melt it!

AND WHAT A FANTASTIC UNIT IT IS NOW, I JUST CANNOT BELIEVE HOW WELL IT WORKS AND THE COST FOR RUNNING IT!!!!!!!!!!!! I AM PLEASED NOT TO HAVE WASTED MONEY ON A NEW BOILER.

If you do not believe Baxi will do a full modification for you, BUY A NEW BOILER! It is far to expensive to mess about with otherwise.

As for the BRASS CAP, I am off to the garage to check.

All the Best from Swedish Viking

regarding "Baxi`s ?" has everyone got a cold? i have a "maxi" which has never let me down, i have had no problems with explosive ignition, and have certainly never been "locked out".... not once in the 30 years since i purchased it in 1973! i really love the fact that my wife and i can simply fold the rear seats down and go to sleep, anywhere we please!

cAN ANYONE TELL ME HOW, CONSIDERING IT TAKES 3 YEARS FOR A BOILER MANUAFACTURER TO OBTAIN A C.E kitemark from the british standards authority and that once that boiler has been approved and listed for sale to the public, you can obtain different parts for a boiler from which were originally tested and approved. This is impossible and illegal and against all the rules and standards of the british standards insitute. The only way for upgraded or different parts to be avaliable would be for a recall of all units sold.

Guess what!! "It" exploded last night with such a force we could smell gas up the garden. Enter Transco who shut the thing down totally. Transco man tested my pipes and supply and concluded there was definately no problems with supply so there is a fault with the boiler.

11am British gas are back, somewhat unbelieving that 5 weeks later it all goes wrong again, especially as they had to pay Baxi £150 for the last call out. They re-start the boiler, still exploding for england but is safe. Now I have to wait for baxi to come out..AGAIN on Wednesday.

Im at the stage now of ripping it out and taking it down to the skip. Not worth the hassle.

Listen up folks because I think I have the answer!!

Ok, Barcelona's by Baxi's admissions suffered with problems with the condensate trap. Mine had this problem for quite some time. Shortly after the condensate was fixed the explosive ignition started. Oddly enough its related...

When the condensate trap leaked/overflowed or what have you it sent moisture into the boiler which settles on the burner. The top gauze bit of the burner is held in place by 4 tiny rivets around the outside of the burner. The burner is hot and cold water from the condensate is on its surface.....this results in the rivets failing. 4 tiny hairline cracks appear in the burner around these rivets. When the burner is cold it poses no problems, but when the burner warms up after the boiler has been on for an hour or so these cracks open up with the heat. This in turn lets more gas through that it should, resulting in the explosive ignition.

So there you have it. Very simple, but bloody difficult to find!!
Jane
x

Hang on....
This thread (and the problems) have been going on for a long time. Also there are a couple of things that don't add up. Whose explanation is this, in fact? Baxi? Baxi engineer? British Gas? ...?

Factual problems:
- The way the boiler works, it SHOULD lock-out as soon as the trap fills up and before any moisture gets loose inside the boiler.
- Even if condensate DOES overflow, it'll sit on the bottom of the combustion chamber, leak through the seams and make a mess on the floor. It could NOT get from there to the burner without jumping several centimetres up to the fan intake!
- If the pipe leading to the trap from the combustion chamber blocks completely, then condensate could get on top of the burner, but the burner top is non-metallic and does not expand significantly when it gets hot. Also, this would NOT make the trap fill or overflow.
- The volume of gas / air mix that gets into the boiler is controlled by the fan / gas valve system. The burner assembly should not create much of a pressure-drop so it's hard to imagine how small cracks in the burner top could make much difference.

If the burner top and the gauze under it are no longer attached to the rest of the burner , what's to stop them floating around inside the combustion chamber when the gas / air flow starts? If the rivets have gone that seems likely and could easily cause detonation. And IF the burner is coming apart, Baxi MUST put out a warning notice and / or recall - this must be a serious safety issue!! AFAICS, the theory-of-operation of this type of premix burner is that the 'flame speed' of the burning gas is LOWER than the rate of flow through the burner top. If there is any way for the flame to get downwards past the gauze, ALL the gas in the area below the gauze will ignite at once - BANG! But then the burner would be extinguished altogether and the PCB would not try to relight it, or there would be a succession of bangs..... It's all very odd!

this is Baxi's explanation, and I did examine the burner and see the hairline cracks.

To answer your questions, when we had problems with the condensate trap the boiler did go into lockout. The trap was the first problem we had. It did leak out below the boiler, but... apparently the moisture within the system lies on top of the burner. The condensate trap was replaced 12 months ago. Then started the explosive ignition problems.

The gauze is still attached to the burner, its just got small cracks along the rivets. When its hot the cracks enlarge allowing more gas into the chamber than there should be. When the boiler re-ignites it explodes.

Im not an engineer and I have little understanding of boilers other than what Im told. But having stood and watched yesterday and seen the cracked burner I can see how this could be possible.

OK - only problem is that what comes up through the burner is gas plus air, not just gas. So the small extra volume of gas-mix that might come through a crack seems unlikely to make that much difference - unless it's a HUGE crack well away from the igniter.
I'm still confused - but if Baxi said it's the case then it must be true!

I just had another thought about the principle behind the Baxi premix burner.

I had assumed the flames stayed above the burner because the gas / air mix flowed fast enough up through the fibrous silicate material in the burner body that the flame could not burn downwards fast enough...

Probably wrong conclusion. Burner might work by flame cooling as in a miner's safety lamp. If so, the gas mix flow speed doesn't matter so much. But a crack might present an 'uncooled path' down to the manifold between fan and burner base (containing enough gas mix to make a bang); this certainly would matter!

Point to understand about premix burners is that ALL the air needed to burn the gas goes through the burner mixed with the gas. There is no other source of air leading into the combustion chamber. The mixture is bound to be explosive - otherwise either it would not burn at all (too lean mix) or there would be yellow flames and a lot of soot (too rich mix).
In a conventional gas burner, some air is drawn in and mixes with the gas between the injector(s) and the burner top but more air flows up through the burner matrix to ensure there is enough oxygen for complete combustion (blue flames).

Anyone out there actually KNOW how the Baxi burner is supposed to work and WHERE the detonations happen with this fault?

Jane
I have to say I admire your staying power.
I'm a patient man but I'd have ripped the boiler off of the wall by now and had it crushed...slowly and painfully - and gone to ...well any other manufacturer except Baxi.
Explosions...smell gas down the garden...I think your boiler is possessed...
Long live this thread
rob