Fused Spur / FCU with 26 amps?

andre_xs · 28 Aug 2021

Thanks for the interesting discussion (although I feel lost at some parts

)

So, in theory, making a spur with more than one double socket and fusing it with a 26A (or 20A) MCB would be legal?
(and if so, the only way to do it?)

BTW, nice picture of the German plug, looks familiar

In Germany, neither the power outlets nor the plugs are usually fused. Only point for fuses is the consumer unit. And also, we are allowed to have regular plugs in the bathroom. Never heard of any accident, but people here usually get a heart attack when they hear this

Although it's perfectly fine to have plugs in the kitchen...

andre_xs · 28 Aug 2021

double post deleted...

plugwash · 28 Aug 2021

andre_xs said:
So, in theory, making a spur with more than one double socket and fusing it with a 26A (or 20A) MCB would be legal?

It's neither explicitly allowed nor explicitly forbidden.

You would probably want to keep such a thing away from the ends of the ring for ring balance reasons.

JohnD · 28 Aug 2021

andre_xs said:
it's perfectly fine to have plugs in the kitchen...

in the kitchen, do you often stand, barefoot, on a wet floor while touching a tap and a plug with bare, wet hands?

EFLImpudence · 28 Aug 2021

andre_xs said:
Thanks for the interesting discussion (although I feel lost at some parts )

So, in theory, making a spur with more than one double socket and fusing it with a 26A (or 20A) MCB would be legal?
(and if so, the only way to do it?)

The questions you ask just relate to anachronistic anomalies.

Just use 4mm² cable which doesn't need down-fusing as it can cope with the 32A of the circuit (actually 37A).

andre_xs · 28 Aug 2021

JohnD said:
in the kitchen, do you often stand, barefoot, on a wet floor while touching a tap and a plug with bare, wet hands?

you haven't seen my intense cooking frenzies

No, seriously, even then nothing should happen? I think in Germany the sockets have to have some kind of splash protection (either a flap over the socket or kind of rubbery cover for the holes where the pins from the plug go through. I didn't want to move the discussion in that direction, just some of the difference between countries which often come up and are good stuff for discussions...

JohnD · 28 Aug 2021

andre_xs said:
No, seriously, even then nothing should happen?

"should"

but those extra risk factors are normal in a bathroom, but not in a kitchen.

I remember one very sad fatal accident when the person knelt on a wet floor and touched pipework. There was an electrical fault.

I don't remember seeing shuttered or protected sockets in Germany.

UK sockets are shuttered.

I have seen partially sleeved German "C" type plugs but not the larger "F" type. "F" type may have a recessed socket which probably gives similar protection.

UK plugs are partially sleeved

They are rather big, though.

flameport · 28 Aug 2021

Type F plugs don't need sleeved pins because the socket outlet is recessed.
Shuttered F sockets are available.

Dubious variants exist where plugs with an earth contact can fit into non-earthed outlets, some have a recess which is too shallow to prevent contact to live pins, and others don't have shutters.
Some countries still allow the use such things, others do not.

Ring circuits were designed for a specific use case at a certain time when certain things were required for certain reasons.
Their intent was one circuit for the whole house, which reduced the amount of materials used both in the cabling and the number of fuses required. it also introduced a single standard plug and socket for everything, rather than the multiple incompatible sockets and plugs used previously.
A fusebox for a 'modern' home with a ring circuit typically had 3 fuses - lights, sockets, cooker.

If people want that arrangement today, then a ring would be an appropriate solution.
However as BS7671 requires that the installation is divided into multiple circuits, a single ring is no longer valid.
Installing multiple rings in a house makes a total nonsense of the original concepts, and 32A circuits are unnecessary for most rooms as the vast majority of electrical equipment is low powered.

BS3036 · 28 Aug 2021

I have also never seen shuttered sockets in Germany. The only thing I have seen is diy add-ons which stick to the back of the socket, requiring you to insert the plug at an angle, and then turn to find the holes. (I found this because it was stuck to a plug and not achieving its purpose.)

andre_xs · 28 Aug 2021

BS3036 said:
I have also never seen shuttered sockets in Germany. The only thing I have seen is diy add-ons which stick to the back of the socket, requiring you to insert the plug at an angle, and then turn to find the holes. (I found this because it was stuck to a plug and not achieving its purpose.)

Yes, they are mostly used for child safety, so that you can't stick something into the hole...

winston1 · 28 Aug 2021

andre_xs said:
Thanks for the interesting discussion (although I feel lost at some parts )

So, in theory, making a spur with more than one double socket and fusing it with a 26A (or 20A) MCB would be legal?
(and if so, the only way to do it?)

Legality does not come into it as the regs are not statuary. Safety comes into it though.

andre_xs said:
BTW, nice picture of the German plug, looks familiar

It was a picture of a socket not a plug.
I have seen isolated shaver sockets in bathrooms of German hotels.

AndyPRK · 28 Aug 2021

The idea of our rings is that you have a 32A protective device but the cable that can only cope with 27A.
Therefore we make it a ring so it is fed from both ends and the current is shared by both ends of the ring.

The intent is that the load is shared at various points on the ring.
We wouldn't knownly, intensionally connect (or spur) 26A to a point on the ring.
We would split the ring, and connect new sockets in, maintaining the ring or use a seperate new dedicated circuit if it was one device with a 26A load.

The good thing of a ring, is that if the central heating fails, you can happly connect 3 heaters at various points on the ring without issue.
So you could have 3 heaters upstairs for axample.

EFLImpudence · 28 Aug 2021

AndyPRK said:
The idea of our rings is that you have a 32A protective device but the cable that can only cope with 27A.

Yes, I know, but what is the point nowadays? Nowadays means now that you no longer install BS3036 fuses.
The regulation states that the minimum CCC for a ring cable is 20A but then says you must use something else larger.

Therefore we make it a ring so it is fed from both ends and the current is shared by both ends of the ring.

Yes, but that is not an aim in itself, so what is the point?

The intent is that the load is shared at various points on the ring.

Well, that's not an intent; just a consequence.

We wouldn't knownly, intensionally connect (or spur) 26A to a point on the ring.

It's done all the time - a spur to a double socket.

We would split the ring, and connect new sockets in, maintaining the ring or use a seperate new dedicated circuit if it was one device with a 26A load.

We wouldn't for a single device, but that is nothing to do with a ring.

The good thing of a ring, is that if the central heating fails, you can happly connect 3 heaters at various points on the ring without issue. So you could have 3 heaters upstairs for axample.

I don't really follow but presumably it is the same for a 32A radial as is everything else you mention.

AndyPRK · 28 Aug 2021

I was explaining for the op

while you could draw 26A from a double socket, it’s unlikely unless installed in utility.

People only install 32A radials in a
Kitchen (if your lucky )
Anywhere else it would be a 2.5mm radial.

SimonH2 · 4 Sep 2021

EFLImpudence said:
JohnD said:

If you mean you want to take a 26A fused spur off a ring circuit, no, this is not permitted.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is.

I think you are both wrong, and both right

Technically, the regs don't restrict the rating of a fused spur off an RFC - so a 26A fuse would be acceptable according to the regs.
However, you are only allowed to connect BS1363 accessories to an RFC. But BS1363 doesn't have anything bigger than a 13A FCU - thus in practical terms there is no way to actually do it.

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Fused Spur / FCU with 26 amps?

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