Plumber Installed Ceiling Lights. This Look OK?

Door7000 · 8 Dec 2022

Visiting some relatives in Wales and noted they had a new bathroom fitted in their 1966 3 bed bungalow. The shower / tiling work / ceiling looks hmm, fair, but I also took a look at the wiring in the attic and found this:

It looks like a bit of dodgy diy to me.

There was just one pendant and now it's four spotlights. The cost was "£25 per light", so £100 all in and that sounds a bit cheap.

What about IP rating and zone?

The old bath was taken out and a new walk in show put in. The size of the bathroom is about 6ft x 6ft so this is all zone 1 and zone2? The consumer unit is over 50 years old and does not have RCD. I don't think they changed anything on the CU so this circuit should have an RCD right?

pcaouolte · 8 Dec 2022

The wiring in the attic looks worse than a lot of diy people would manage, but then they did ask a plumber to fit the lights rather than asking an electrician. It needs sorting. When the electrics are sorted then the insulation can be put back into position.

Can't say anything about IP ratings or zones from that photo, it doesn't show the lights in the bathroom.

Is the new shower electric?

winston1 · 8 Dec 2022

I believe in Wales it is notifiable work.

Door7000 · 8 Dec 2022

The shower is hot water fed off the boiler. No electrics with that, just the lights. Will get them to send a photo.

There's two lights above the shower area, two above the toilet area. That's the only electrics in there.

If this is notifiable work should the householders have had a copy of a certificate or work schedule?

Is this something I can tidy up? Use a junction box rather than terminal blocks and half a ceiling rose, which what looks like has happened in that picture.

What about the RCD?

Wayners · 8 Dec 2022

Need insulation over plasterboard or will get cold and condensation problem causing paint to peal and mould.
I've got plenty of pictures of work like that. Cables not tacked neatly.
Insulation not replaced tidy.
Cable connectors exposed and not in boxes.
No spotlight covers if required.

ericmark · 8 Dec 2022

Clearly the installation does not comply, but the real question is what do you do about it?

My son jumped in with my mothers wet room, and fired the builder, thinking he had gone through LABC I told them I was taking over the job, can't untell them.

So you have to decide if worth the money it will cost to correct the work.

Unlikely to cost less than £500 to correct, it will need a new consumer unit, an electrician can't cut corners, if the relatives don't have the money they will not thank you.

Don't get me wrong, the work is substandard, but if they don't go in loft, then unlikely to cause them a problem. They really today should have RCD protection, but not your place to spend their money.

sparkwright · 8 Dec 2022

Door7000 said:
The shower is hot water fed off the boiler. No electrics with that, just the lights. Will get them to send a photo.

There's two lights above the shower area, two above the toilet area. That's the only electrics in there.

If this is notifiable work should the householders have had a copy of a certificate or work schedule?

Is this something I can tidy up? Use a junction box rather than terminal blocks and half a ceiling rose, which what looks like has happened in that picture.

What about the RCD?

Yes, i think you could tidy it up.

A junction box is required, and tidy the cables with cable clips.

Assuming you are competent, you couldn't make a worse job, I hope.

As for the RCD, if you really want to be compliant, I see no reason why you couldn't fit a stand-alone RCD unit, perhaps in an airing cupboard or somewhere, to serve just the bathroom lights.

Ideally the consumer unit needs changing I suspect, but obviously that's a different game.

Ragnar_AT · 9 Dec 2022

The zones only reach up to 2250 mm from the floor as far as I know so unless the ceiling is very low the lights are out of zones. Condensation is a very real issue in UK bathrooms though, so you might still want IP-rated downlights, others are probably not fit for purpose.

ericmark · 9 Dec 2022

sparkwright said:
As for the RCD, if you really want to be compliant, I see no reason why you couldn't fit a stand-alone RCD unit, perhaps in an airing cupboard or somewhere, to serve just the bathroom lights.

I would say if you want to be safer, you can fit a RCD FCU etc, but in the main the units which are not part of the consumer unit don't have the BS EN numbers to be compliant.

We have lived for many years without RCD protection, I remember returning to this country around 1990 and we were then removing the old ELCB-v and fitting ELCB-c instead, not sure when the ELCB-v came in, would guess around 1980, in the main at that time with TT supplies.

I fitted 30 mA RCD's to my house around 1992, but it was around 2008 before they were used for protection in doors as standard. And the old homes were not considered as dangerous. However at the same time the rules on bonding were relaxed as long as RCD protection was in place.

It could be said in the last 14 years the changes to equipment used in the home has made RCD protection more desirable. Many manufacturers instructions say not only you should use a RCD but even stipulate the type.

However my father-in-law never fitted one, and my mothers house only got them when re-wired in about 2016. One of the early jobs I did on moving here, done around 2019, with all type AC RCBO's but it cost me around £350 with no labour costs, can't see it costing less than £500 fitted.

So with best intentions you could cost your relatives £1000 to get the work done. This may be why they got the plumber to do the work,

securespark · 9 Dec 2022

I have seen VO ELCBs that were installed in the early 70s.

They were deleted from the regs in 1985.

Notch7 · 9 Dec 2022

checkatrade / rated people????

SUNRAY · 9 Dec 2022

Notch7 said:
checkatrade / rated people????

It took me several years to get removed from Checkatrade and all their subsidiaries as a white goods engineer and domestic appliance engineer.
None of the site had a clue how I got listed as such... So much for GDPR

In my opinion none of those sites are worth the ~~paper they're written on~~ electrons they waste.

Door7000 · 23 May 2023

Just got a proper professional to look at the 'upgraded' lighting. This is what he found:

ericmark · 23 May 2023

Oh dear, out of interest what did the minor works or installation certificate say, and did the compliance or completion certificate arrive?

I think I would be considering council trading standards on that one. You say professional so assume scheme member, if not then as in Wales the LABC would need informing first and the £100 plus vat fee paying, only reason for not contacting trading standards would be if not a scheme member, as the rules are it's the home owner who must either inform the LABC or employ a scheme member.

I personally think that is wrong, the tradesman should contact the LABC, but I don't make the rules.

ebee · 23 May 2023

Notch7 said:
checkatrade / rated people????

so good they give a one year guarantee? one year! unbelievable !!!

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Plumber Installed Ceiling Lights. This Look OK?

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