New boiler advice

wemyss · 13 Jul 2007

I am a 6 year time served plumber & heating engineer, ex Corgi and retired for quite a number of years. I’m looking for general advice as follows.
When we moved into our present home some thirty years ago there was only a coal fired backboiler for DHW.
I installed central heating using a Glow Worm Majorca 2 gas back boiler which is still in use today. However have decided that it must need replacing so have been looking at the alternatives. I have been reading all the threads on this site from current installers, and also the manufacturers web sites for information on these modern combi and conventional condensing boilers of which I have no experience whatsoever. If I had a choice I would opt for another back boiler + gas fire despite it being less economical but it appears I don’t have that option.
After studying the above options I would prefer to keep my existing cylinder with its immersion heater on white meter overnight tariff. As the boiler at present is virtually never used during the summer periods this gives me an alternative DHW source.
Location of the proposed boiler gives me some problems. We have just had a new kitchen installed which is the wife’s pride and joy although it gave me grief to see my own installed one decades ago being ripped out. Suggestions that one of the wall cupboards might have to be used for a boiler met with that “You must be joking” line.
The airing cupboard met with disapproval although I think she would relent.
My first question is “where does the condense have to discharge to”. The back of the airing cupboard goes out on to a kitchen extension tiled roof and then into plastic guttering. Not suitable?.
If it was installed upstairs is it the normal practise to use the existing 28mm pumped primaries from the cylinder to link up to the downstairs heating circuit which at present come off the backboiler?.
I note on the Bosch site that they specify a 22mm gas supply. Surprised by this as 15mm used to be the norm for domestic boilers. Does this mean that a new 22mm supply has to be taken from the meter ?.
I realise of course that when I call in a contractor he will advise but I like to have a fair knowledge of the pro's and cons before I call one in. Please offer any other advice you think may be of use.
Many other questions I would like to ask but realise this post is a long one. Just one last thing….British Gas are offering £400.00 off new boilers at present plus a £300 voucher from House Warm for over 60s. is this a good offer and what are your opinions on BG.
Regards wemyss

EliteHeat · 13 Jul 2007

wemyss said:
I am a 6 year time served plumber & heating engineer, ex Corgi and retired for quite a number of years. I’m looking for general advice as follows.
When we moved into our present home some thirty years ago there was only a coal fired backboiler for DHW.
I installed central heating using a Glow Worm Majorca 2 gas back boiler which is still in use today. However have decided that it must need replacing so have been looking at the alternatives. I have been reading all the threads on this site from current installers, and also the manufacturers web sites for information on these modern combi and conventional condensing boilers of which I have no experience whatsoever. If I had a choice I would opt for another back boiler + gas fire despite it being less economical but it appears I don’t have that option.
After studying the above options I would prefer to keep my existing cylinder with its immersion heater on white meter overnight tariff. As the boiler at present is virtually never used during the summer periods this gives me an alternative DHW source.

Good plan

Location of the proposed boiler gives me some problems. We have just had a new kitchen installed which is the wife’s pride and joy although it gave me grief to see my own installed one decades ago being ripped out. Suggestions that one of the wall cupboards might have to be used for a boiler met with that “You must be joking” line.

Sheesh!

The airing cupboard met with disapproval although I think she would
relent.

That's a relief

My first question is “where does the condense have to discharge to”. The back of the airing cupboard goes out on to a kitchen extension tiled roof and then into plastic guttering. Not suitable?.

I've done it

If it was installed upstairs is it the normal practise to use the existing 28mm pumped primaries from the cylinder to link up to the downstairs heating circuit which at present come off the backboiler?.

Why not?

I note on the Bosch site that they specify a 22mm gas supply. Surprised by this as 15mm used to be the norm for domestic boilers. Does this mean that a new 22mm supply has to be taken from the meter ?.

Whatever it takes to achieve the gas rate

I realise of course that when I call in a contractor he will advise but I like to have a fair knowledge of the pro's and cons before I call one in. Please offer any other advice you think may be of use.
Many other questions I would like to ask but realise this post is a long one. Just one last thing….British Gas are offering £400.00 off new boilers at present plus a £300 voucher from House Warm for over 60s. is this a good offer and what are your opinions on BG.

Nooooooooooooo!!!

Regards wemyss

Now stand by for 23 different opinions!!!

Gasman1015 · 13 Jul 2007

BG will also give you a loyalty bonus of £150 and pay you £150 for your old boiler and you will still pay a £1000.00 more than the norm.

wemyss · 14 Jul 2007

Thanks for your replies. I thought the glossy brochure and buying my old boiler back was a bit too much. They can have it for free when it comes out.
Looking for suitable places, would an outside tiled wall of the bathroom be a suitable place for installation.
Would I be right in thinking that a condensing regular boiler installation be quite a bit more expensive?.
There is a 15mm gas pipe under the landing floor boards not far away. As mentioned on my previous post that the Worcester website specifies that a 22mm supply is absolutely critical. Is this always the case to get the necessary gas flow?.
regards
wemyss

corgiman · 14 Jul 2007

The 22mm is not nescessarily need for the gas rate but WB insist on it as they got fed up with attend under sized supplies

It is a bit irevellent any why if they want it they get it end of

gas4you · 14 Jul 2007

With a condensing lift pump the boiler can be sited almost anywhere that you can easily flue it. I assume that you will be needing about 15Kw heat only boiler as comparing with your old back boiler. This would need approx 1.5m3/hr gas to run it at full power, so the distance of 15mm copper is going to be limited.

Bathrooms are an acceptable place to fit modern boilers, but there are a lot of electrical regs to contend with and I only fit them there as a last resort. You may have to have the boiler boxed in with a lockable door.

WB is a good choice, but I would always opt for Vaillant. I would go for an Ecotec Plus 415 and a new fast recovery hot water cylinder and I assume the the system will be changed to fully pumped with new controls added.

If you have to have a vertical flue fitted this will add about £250 to the job.

I would not entertain BG myself due to the ridiculous prices they quote. I had one customer who said that BG had offered her £900 off in grants etc and could I get the same grants. I quoted her £600 less than BG without the same grants. You just have to look at the final figure you pay, not what offers are offered.

There are a lot of stipulations about the warmfront 300 grant, I am registered with them for this as well.

simond · 14 Jul 2007

Dave

None of your current Vaillants will need a cupboard/door unless directly over the bath. BS-EN 7671.

Basically the IP rating and BS harmonisation with Europe renders previous protection measures superfluous.

Will need a Part P notification due to location. This takes ages to do properly as I find most households have defective earthing..... even some that have supposedly been professionally rewired in the last 3 years

gas4you · 14 Jul 2007

I didn't know that

I'm having to put one in a large bathroom next week, so I will dispense with the cupboard etc.

wemyss · 14 Jul 2007

Dave..The existing gas back boiler which does the job is 40,000 Btu in old money which I find is 11.7KW.
The bathroom is large enough to site it well away from over the bath.
The condense pipe would be able to go down the side of the house into an existing drain gully.
So I suppose it would be an option to site it there although a little more difficult getting the flow and return over to the airing cupboard especially as it’s a hip roof and they would come up close to the eaves. There would also be a fair amount of cooling coming through the ventilated soffit.
So it is one option to discuss when I get someone in.
You have put me off BG so they will not be getting my old boiler.
Regarding Warmfront.. I rang them and asked details. The lady asked if I was over 60 and receiving no benefits. As this was the case she sent me a voucher immediately. With this was a list of supposedly local contractors who were in this scheme. None of them was really close and one was in fact in Newcastle on Tyne about 250 miles North.
Thanks to all for your advice.
wemyss

gas4you · 14 Jul 2007

You will also find that they stipulate that your heating system is not working.

Make sure the external condensate pipe is 1 1/4". Use a good armaflex insulation on pipes in loft near eaves.

How about a system boiler and do away with the header tank, then drop the pipes down and under the floor to the airing cupboard?

An Ecotec Plus 612 sounds like it would suffice your needs.

Unfortunately the installer only gets £250 of the 300 back. They charg the other £50 as admin fee

wemyss · 14 Jul 2007

Dave, I presume these are pressurised ones with simply a mains feed.
I fitted many of these in industrial sizes of of up to 800,000 BTUs and they were cracking boilers and mainly Italian. They used a separate expansion tank bolted to the wall.
That could be a good option and will look into that.
I actually have a unused Glow Worm backboiler which is still in its cartons in the garage. Must be about 10 years old and was one I was going to fit for someone but retired before I got round to it.
From what I read these are no longer allowed and no Corgi man would be allowed to fit it.
There must be plenty of work in my area as I have left messages on two contractors answerphone asking if they would call to discuss supply and fit a boiler and neither of them have replied.
wemyss

EliteHeat · 14 Jul 2007

wemyss said:
I actually have a unused Glow Worm backboiler which is still in its cartons in the garage. Must be about 10 years old and was one I was going to fit for someone but retired before I got round to it.
From what I read these are no longer allowed and no Corgi man would be allowed to fit it.

Hmm, makes you think doesn't it? I know exactly what I would do in your situation

gas4you · 14 Jul 2007

I must admit that at the moment I am so busy it is taking me around 2-3 days to return phone calls. I know this is bad but I just don't get the time.

I know what you're saying elite, OP has obviously been competent during his working life but just doesn't have a bit of paper anymore

Will need a new flue liner as well I would think, change to fully pumped, new controls and job done

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