Advice on cheapest method of insulating cold workshop (pics)

boosh2000 · 6 Mar 2008

Hi all

I'm hoping you can give me some advice. I rent a workshop and need to know the cheapest method of making it habitable: through insulating and heating. It gets no direct sunlight and used to be a butchers shop, so is tiled. The floor is concrete, the ceiling is (now) suspended and when the electrician moves the lights down we can lay the loft insulation up there, which will be a big help (got enough to go 25cm deep). The total area is 42m square. Advice on how to heat the place without spending an absolute fortune would go down very well too. Basically, any advice to this complete cheapskate newbie would be appreciated.

Outside - corrugated iron roof and brick walls:

Inside 1 - tiled walls, concrete floor, suspended ceiling that will be insulated when the lights are moved down.

Inside 2 - where the walls aren't tiled, they're bare breezeblock

All in all, it's pretty damned cold (so cold we had a burst pipe in there, which finally prompted the landlord into fitting the ceiling we'd been pestering him about for months).

We don't need it to be hot, but we do need it to be warm enough to sit in without a fleece and chattering teeth. As we rent and are on a relatively short lease and have little money coming in yet from the business, we also need the whole project to be as cheap and quick as possible.

Any help would be most appreciated

Shytalkz · 6 Mar 2008

Dryline it with studwork and plasterboard and insulation between the studs; put insulation under a floating chipbard floor (assuming that this is just a sort of office type arrangement?) and put insulation up in the ceiling void as you suggest.

If it's more a workshop, then a floating chipboard deck won't be suitable, depending on what you use the space for. You could put insulation and a 63mm screed with chicken mesh in it, or just accept that the measures with the wall and ceiling will at least make it somewhat better than it is at the moment and leave as-is.

boosh2000 · 7 Mar 2008

Thanks for the advice, Shytalkz. I think my next task would be the floor rather than the walls (I quite like the look of the tiles and the concrete is easily as cold as them).

So what size timber would I use to make a frame for the suspended floor, what thickness chipboard and what's the spacing of the frame?

When I say workshop, we make soap and bathroom smellies (it's not like a mechanical workshop, there's no heavy machinery).

Also, what would be the best way of heating the place? We have no gas connection, so there's only really electricity and I don't want to spend a great deal of money on the bills or the heating. What's the least expensive way to keep the space warm (just normally warm, we don't want to have to sit there in t-shirts all day in the middle of winter).

Shytalkz · 7 Mar 2008

Use 50x75 joists (sawn will be fine, doesn't need to be stress graded, asi it will sit directly on the floor) at 400 centres placed on a polythene dpm laid on the floor and dressed up the walls by 75 or so. Nog the joists in the middle of their length. Cut 75 insulation board in between the joists (Cellotex or Kingspan or similar polyurethane insulating board, fit 19 floor grade chipboard deck over the joists, or you could use sterling board, if you're going to cover it (or even if you're not, if you're not overly concerned about "the look").

Heating is not really my bag, although I would think that storage heaters are probably your best bet, with economy seven tariff. I stand to be corrected though. Whatever you use, the higher the levels of insulation you acheive, the less you'll be spending on heating, so you might want to reconsider whether looking at a tiled wall is worth it, especially if the outside walls are solid. Remember too, that if you heat the building up and the tiles are on solid walls, then you are asking for condensation to occur.

and1c · 7 Mar 2008

Shytalkz said:
Use 50x75 joists (sawn will be fine, doesn't need to be stress graded, asi it will sit directly on the floor) at 400 centres placed on a polythene dpm laid on the floor and dressed up the walls by 75 or so. Nog the joists in the middle of their length. Cut 75 insulation board in between the joists (Cellotex or Kingspan or similar polyurethane insulating board, fit 19 floor grade chipboard deck over the joists, or you could use sterling board, if you're going to cover it (or even if you're not, if you're not overly concerned about "the look").

Heating is not really my bag, although I would think that storage heaters are probably your best bet, with economy seven tariff. I stand to be corrected though. Whatever you use, the higher the levels of insulation you acheive, the less you'll be spending on heating, so you might want to reconsider whether looking at a tiled wall is worth it, especially if the outside walls are solid. Remember too, that if you heat the building up and the tiles are on solid walls, then you are asking for condensation to occur.

Some Good advice their shytalkz.

For heating I would go with storage heaters on economy 7

big-all · 7 Mar 2008

wont the landlord chip in !!!

how short is the lease !!!

cost of work say £500

heating required for say 4 months a year at average 4kw over the day and 2 months at 2kw av 1 month at 1kw av for say 10 hrs a day

40 units a day [mon - sat]for 4 months[104 days]=4160 units at 8p= £333

20 units a day [mon -sat] for 2 months[52 days]= 1040 units at 8p =£83

10 units a day [mon -sat] for 1 month [26 days] = 260 units at 8p = £21

=£437 a year

now your consumption and costs may be vastly different but appart from draught excluders your unlikly to save much money unless you are going to be there for a few years

also the money you save depends on your percentage of heat saved
so if say you spend £500 and save 30 percent of your heating bill at around £130 its going to take 4 years to save any money
at 60 percent[£260] reduction its going to take 2 years to break even

Shytalkz · 7 Mar 2008

Whatever happened to saving the planet?

boosh2000 · 7 Mar 2008

Shytalkz said:
Use 50x75 joists (sawn will be fine, doesn't need to be stress graded, asi it will sit directly on the floor) at 400 centres placed on a polythene dpm laid on the floor and dressed up the walls by 75 or so. Nog the joists in the middle of their length. Cut 75 insulation board in between the joists (Cellotex or Kingspan or similar polyurethane insulating board, fit 19 floor grade chipboard deck over the joists, or you could use sterling board, if you're going to cover it (or even if you're not, if you're not overly concerned about "the look").

Heating is not really my bag, although I would think that storage heaters are probably your best bet, with economy seven tariff. I stand to be corrected though. Whatever you use, the higher the levels of insulation you acheive, the less you'll be spending on heating, so you might want to reconsider whether looking at a tiled wall is worth it, especially if the outside walls are solid. Remember too, that if you heat the building up and the tiles are on solid walls, then you are asking for condensation to occur.

Thanks for all this. I presume nogs are braces (doh!). I was thinking that I might have to have a 400mm grid across the whole floor area, so this is much easier than that. Would I also need to add these braces around the edge of the room (where the skirting would normally go) to hold up the short edges or would the 400mm spacing between the horizontal joists be enough not to need it? And could I use rockwool loft insulation between the joists and above the membrane rather than the kingspan stuff?

Apart from ebay, where's the best value places to go for sheet materials?

boosh2000 · 7 Mar 2008

big-all said:
Also the money you save depends on your percentage of heat saved so if say you spend £500 and save 30 percent of your heating bill at around £130 its going to take 4 years to save any money
at 60 percent[£260] reduction its going to take 2 years to break even

Well, it's partly to save money on heating, but also because we don't use it at the moment except when we have to simply because it's so bloody cold, so that's our rent down the drain.

Shytalkz · 7 Mar 2008

boosh2000 said:
Thanks for all this. I presume nogs are braces (doh!). I was thinking that I might have to have a 400mm grid across the whole floor area, so this is much easier than that. Would I also need to add these braces around the edge of the room (where the skirting would normally go) to hold up the short edges or would the 400mm spacing between the horizontal joists be enough not to need it? And could I use rockwool loft insulation between the joists and above the membrane rather than the kingspan stuff?

Apart from ebay, where's the best value places to go for sheet materials?

Noggins are short bits that run the other way and sit between the joists to brace them and I should have said put them at the ends as well. As you're sitting it directly on the floor, your timbers don't have to be long enough to span from one side of the room to the other, they can join wherever, either butt joint (end to end) or overlap, choice is yours. Nog them as for outside ends and midspan.

You can use quilt, it's not as thermally efficient, but it is cheaper.

As for prices, work out how many 2.4mx1.2m sheets you need (if you do use Kingspan or other thermal board) and ring round some builders merchants in your area for prices. 75mm thick is around £25 a sheet plus VAT, works out around £10/m2 incl VAT.

boosh2000 · 7 Mar 2008

Sorry - another question in reply, Shytalkz, sorry.

Does the wood frame have to be secured to the concrete through the membrane? If so, how?

big-all · 7 Mar 2008

Shytalkz said:
Whatever happened to saving the planet?

i absolutly believe in saving the planet my gas and electric average £10 a week for both[480 a year]

the point was if short term lease he would be doing it for the landlords benefit and even after a couple of years may well be out of pocket for all his effort

Shytalkz · 7 Mar 2008

boosh2000 said:
Sorry - another question in reply, Shytalkz, sorry.

Does the wood frame have to be secured to the concrete through the membrane? If so, how?

No probs. No, as long as the floor is reasonably level, by the time it's nogged out it'll be tighter than a nun's chuff

- any low spots, just put some timber packers in under the joist as required.

Shytalkz · 7 Mar 2008

big-all said:
Shytalkz said:

Whatever happened to saving the planet?

Click to expand...

i absolutly believe in saving the planet my gas and electric average £10 a week for both[480 a year]

the point was if short term lease he would be doing it for the landlords benefit and even after a couple of years may well be out of pocket for all his effort

There's a good boy...

If it's a short term lease, it's a case of the eternal dichotomy. At least if he loose fixes it all, he can lift and take his timber etc with him

.

The-brickie · 7 Mar 2008

big-all said:
Shytalkz said:

Whatever happened to saving the planet?

Click to expand...

i absolutly believe in saving the planet my gas and electric average £10 a week for both[480 a year]

Arr but that cos you 'fix' the meters init....

Sorry op, yup batten out, insulate and plasterboard will save a bit, I would if weight is an issue, just use Jablite on the roof, what ever the joists (depth) are then a 25mm board over the top, nice and bright too!

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Advice on cheapest method of insulating cold workshop (pics)

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