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An official petition to No 10 to review part P..

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by mapj1, 9 Feb 2007.

  1. mapj1

    mapj1

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    http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Part-P-Review/
    http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Part-P-Review/

    I am sure some of us will have already seen this, and it is clear from the discussions on this BB and in other places that Part P is not really as satisfactory as it could be, as seen from either side of the fence. (personally if it was ditched I'd not be sad, but others among us may prefer to see it revised and made to work - as this petition calls for a review, then it can't hurt either camp, even if your motivation is different.)
    Basically this chap has started a petition to have the operation of part P in practice be reviewed, and while I fear our friend Tony has bigger fish to fry this week, it can't hurt to bump it up the civil service 'must get round to it' list.
    Assuming you have a real name, a UK address and an Email you can sign this E-petition. (though I found the final step of 'we send you an Email to authenticate' takes about 2 hours after the event.)
    I suspect if we each pushed 10 friends or professional colleagues to sign up we could get the support up to a noticable level - even a few thousand names on such a niche topic would be quite significant...
    If YOU think its worth it then bump this post to keep it near the top - I won't.
    regards and best wishes.
    Mike, G7VZY
    PS If you can't tell I'm serious, consider that you can count on the fingers of one foot the number of times I have started a thread here.
     
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  3. Pensdown

    Pensdown

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    mapj1, before you sign please read what Roger claims

    The only "hassle" is submitting a building regs application. It has nothing whatsoever to do lash ups and fixed wiring. If people don't want to make a build regs application for some electrical works then they wont. They will just carry as before, no better, no worse.
    Yea right.
    FFS, what planet is the man on
    There is no such thing as Part P testing. BC will ask for a test certificate for the works because all electrical must be tested on completion. All BC will do, as stated in the approved document is issue a building regs completion certificate once they are happy the installation conforms to the building regs.

    They may inspect it to insure it meets Part's B, M & L but why should they test, thats always been the installers job.
    ...so that the pub trained builders and kitchen fitters can carry on as before and the bad DIY'ers can leave a total mess for the next owner?

    IMO some people will always want to cut corners and de-value their homes by doing work without BR approval whether it's electrical or structural and that's up to them. You could argue that this forum offers some damage limitation for these people.

    But by including electrical works within the building regs it gives paying customers a fighting chance of getting what they've payed for, a good job that meets all current regulations.
     
  4. dingbat

    dingbat

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    In my experience, with one or two notable (and vocal) exceptions, so-called 'electricians' who object to Part are largely ignorant of the requirements and fear assessment.

    They cite huge costs to undergo training and buy test equipment, despite the fact that testing has been part of the regulations since 1882 and I believe the issuing of certification was introduced in the Eleventh Edition in 1939.

    They claim to be knowledgeable yet possess out of date copies of the regulations, dispute many points of regulation in ignorance and display some extraordinary lack of understanding of the fundamentals.

    For years electricians have been complaining that there are no barriers to entering the trade. Then, when regulation appears, adopt an "I didn't mean me!" stance.

    I have no sympathy for such charlatans who have for years plied their trade with impunity, never doubting their own, often inadequate, knowledge and abiities.

    As for costs, most professional electricians already had insurance, test equipment and many were already members of an association anyway. I see little to suggest that there have been enormous price hikes to the customer. In fact, these very rebels are continuing to flout the law by not notifying or not joining a self-cert scheme and then promoting themselves to customers as cheaper because of their lack of membership.

    But the most ludicrous thing? Part P is this:

    "Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installation from fire or injury."

    He'll go a long way objecting to that!
     
  5. IJWS15

    IJWS15

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    THe people who cut corners will allways ignore the rules anyway - something this government does not understand. Hence more laws, less police to enforce them and no empty prison spaces!

    Any law which makes it more expensive to do the right thing is stupid.
     
  6. bernardgreen

    bernardgreen

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    BUYER BEWARE

    A certificate is valid ( but not necessarily accurate ) on the day it was issued. I was recently in a house where the buyers have all the necessary certificates. The equipotential bond cables in the bath room were not connected, the bond to the gas inlet pipe was coiled up ready in the gas meter box.

    The only way to be sure about the thing you are buying is to inspect it yourself ( or use an expert ) before buying it.
     
  7. dingbat

    dingbat

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    But, correcting aberrant practice will always cost something.

    The Building Regulations exist to impose certain minimum standards on the homes we live in. They are, without doubt, a good thing. As building research continues, new techniques and new standards are continually being introduced and it is an equally continuous process to update regulations and approvals accordingly. (In an economy that no longer manufactures anything, the proliferation of knowledge and regulatory control provides work, too!)

    All that Part P requires is that electrical installations in dwellings conform to a minimum standard, equivalent to BS 67671, the Wiring Regulations. That's all.

    Now, here's what annoys me about protesting sparks: Controlled works and services need to be inspected and certified to demonstrate compliance. This involves submitting a building notice and fee and undergoing inspection by a building control officer. Because of the specialised knowledge required by electricians, it was decided that demonstrably qualified electricians would be allowed to self-certify. This is the barrier to entry that the same moaning sparks have been crying out for for years!

    For a properly qualified, insured and equipped electrician this involves nothing more than an annual assessment and a fee of around £450 per year. I did around 95 notifiable jobs last year (half of them rewires), which works out at £4.74 per job, plus the £3.26 for notification and insurance-backed warranty, all including VAT. Hardly a massive increase. (BTW I didn't massage the figures to get exactly £8 - pure coincidence!)

    Had I notified each one via the BC route I'd be looking to spread an extra £10k-ish around my customers.

    Yes there will always be cheapskates and those who are ignorant of or blatantly flout the rules - just look at the roads. But the majority accept change and the householders I talk to generally see Part P as a good thing. (Sometimes I have to disabuse them of the alarmist propaganda they've picked up down the pub!)
     
  8. Chri5

    Chri5

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    Why would I sign a petition against Part P.

    As a ex non qualified electrician, over the last two years I have spent in excess of £2500 on training and test tools. I've spent 100's of unpaid hours testing, reading (and digesting) and practicing all elements of Part P.

    The real cost to pocket has been £5k plus

    I have plans to take 2381 and 2391 this year, add another £2k to my NIC training costs.

    I'm starting to build up a great bunch of contacts and I will soon have to decide if I wish to expand and take on staff, or stay small and start rejecting work.

    So I'm going to shoot myself in the foot and sign a petition that might lead to changes that will take work away from me. Right :rolleyes:

    Like any change scheme, not everything can be perfect 1st time / 1st attempt. While I see that some improvements might be warranted, such improvements should come about by gently tweaking of the regulations- not by radical change.

    I will await the arrival of 17th Edition, which will undoubtedly have some scope changes that will force Part P to be adapted to suit.
     
  9. sm1thson

    sm1thson

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    Im a keen DIYer, I welcome part P (i didnt like the idea of it at first) and i think it will reduce the amount of bad electrics in building works and dIY

    my only problem with part P is that it now costs me nearly £100 to my Local Building Control if i am to do any relevant electrical work. as far as i am aware its the local council that set that price, not Tony. maybe if something can be done to streamline things so the council dont need to charge that much, but at the end of the day part P is there to make things safer and better like other building regs.
     
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  11. dingbat

    dingbat

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    ?? BS 7671 has absolutely nothing to do with The Building Regulations and vice versa.

    But I am glad to see you have been 'converted'. ;)
     
  12. dingbat

    dingbat

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    Don't forget that practically everything you can do to a property is covered by some section of the Building Regulations and much of it is notifiable. If you've ever undertaken major renovations on a house without involving building control you've probably broken the law without knowing it.

    By this token, Part P has to be seen as a success simply because all the moaning has been very effective in publicising it!
     
  13. sm1thson

    sm1thson

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    yep i know that everything from my windows to shower trap seam to have a building reg on them. as i say as a home owner the extra cost is a bit of a pain, but at the same time as a home buyer its a good thing when i buy a house i want it built to specs and regulations, so its only fair i do the same with my own, -and that included the electrics, and the only way to prove it involves paperwork which involves money, i cant see a way around it -doubt tonyB can either (or even cares)
     
  14. CookyMan9999

    CookyMan9999

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    I was talking to a JIB representative a couple of weeks ago and he said that the rules on part P have now been amended...

    If you are a qualified electrician you can do work in someone's house or shop etc as long as you give a certificate (like the one in the back of the regs, doesn't need to be NIC) that is ok. I think that is fair does anyone know any different?
     
  15. dingbat

    dingbat

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    You've always had to issue a certificate. The job does not comply with BS 7671 unless you do.

    I believe a greater number of LABCs are beginning to understand this and, so long as the notification fee is paid, there has never been any reason why this wouldn't be acceptable. As a tradesman it's still a more expensive way of complying than becoming registered.
     
  16. Careful_Bodger

    Careful_Bodger

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  17. Spark123

    Spark123

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    I don't think it is quite that streight forwards, to do notifiable work it still needs to be notified via the two routes, become a member of a self certification scheme or notify building control, I haven't seen any ammendment to the Statutory Instruments to say otherwise. Shops will come under EAWR, HASWA etc etc etc, require PLI insurance etc, unless the the shop shares a common supply with a dwelling part p doesn't come into it.
     
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