backboiler, dead... how do i get rid of it?

[sidecar_jon]

I know yawn.. saga ah... Just had the Homewarm grant gas engineer round and he said without actually looking at the thing that the backboilers dead. Which is fine. they are going to put a combi thing up in the airing cupbord apparently venting thro the roof, due to the wall betwixt kitchen and house being about 3ft thick and granite. Anyway its cold here. So it takes them at least three months to do anything.

i asked if i could have the backboiler ripped out, and either a cheep gas fire put in, or more likely (well i like the idea and if it gets desperate we can burn the furniture) a solid fuel stove in the hole..... I notice theres lots of gubbins back there, looks expensive. what can i extract and at what point might i need a corgi bloke.. bearing in mind its "capped off"..... and the radiators are still full of presumably disgusting water....

(in fact what is "capped off"?.. is that really capped? or just switched off?.. cos i dont want to fill the house with gas by blundering about in there!)

Im also wondering about the proximity of gas pipes even if they are "capped" to hot cast iron...

 

[compheat]

They've probably turned off the gas to the boiler. How can they tell its dead if they've not taken its pulse You can still use the fire even if boiler is not working provided the flue is ok. Did you call these people out because you had a problem with the heating

 

[sidecar_jon]

complex question... it got "capped off" by British Gass few months ago. (this is the forth "engineer" to look at the red tag and pronounce expired... But it must be said only the first one actuly looked inside it, but its dead never the less) Surfice it to say its not ever going to work again. Cant aford to get it fixed, but got grant to put new in.... so thats that but time frame means we need heat of some description. And something cheeper than electricity. So proposal is Hoik it out and put a nice coal/wood stove in the place. Anyway. anyone know what it intails?

 

[andy]

complex question... it got "capped off" by British Gass few months ago. (this is the forth "engineer" to look at the red tag and pronounce expired... But it must be said only the first one actuly looked inside it, but its dead never the less) Surfice it to say its not ever going to work again. Cant aford to get it fixed, but got grant to put new in.... so thats that but time frame means we need heat of some description. And something cheeper than electricity. So proposal is Hoik it out and put a nice coal/wood stove in the place. Anyway. anyone know what it intails?

to take it out is fairly simple. just make sure that the gas is in no way connected. take front out, either loosen the nuts to the pipes before removing boiler or just do as we do and put a large chisel thru the pipes. we take the copex out aswell but not sure if you have to. cant say much about puttin anything back in, i only get involved with the removing part

 

[sidecar_jon]

thanks andy... what about the heat exchanger etc? it is after all connected to all the rads!... can i just unbolt it and drain it all?...(i presume turning off the cold water tank in the loft)

 

[Paul Barker]

Cap off the cold feed to the feed and expansion tank in the loft. Find a drain off point downstairs to drain down, if there isn't one cut a pipe under the floor and let it go under the floor, assuming there are no levels below you.

Drain boiler similarly.

cut pipes to boiler as per advice above, boiler should slide forwards.

Get someone to cap off the gas pipe under the floor, at the mopment it may only be capped in the catchment area.

I'm not qualified for solid fuel so cannot say for sure but I'm pretty sure the gases are too hot for a flue liner so that has to be removed. Check with an appropriately trained person.

But before you remove the back boiler what about just decomissioning it and using the gas fire front? I did that for a customer, rang Glow worm and they instructed me how to do it correctly. If I had a customer with a BAxi in the same need I would ring Baxi because manufacturers are gospel in these matters.

 

[sidecar_jon]

Thanks Paul... What we do as per fire depends on what i find behind it.

The who set up is red tagged, so its a nono to use it apparently. Also its actually installed standing on the carpet, which all the engineers have said isn't a good thing.... we were thinking of just the cheapest gass fire we can get and having that in for the winter (as we are skint)... or a solid fuel stove, if that practical... i know we need a proper hearth etc, and the chimney checked out etc.

 

[Paul Barker]

In that case, remove boiler as described, leave gas pipe capped off where it is for corgi man to connect to, buy own cheapest ilfe (inset live fule effect fire) from a shed for £130 or so, build the hearth yourself. Brick up the hole yourself to the shape and size of the ilfe you buy so that the installer can just fit it and do little else. Block all holes into catchment with gobbo (sand and cement), i.e. where heating pipes used to be. Leave liner in chimney and leave terminal. Fitter will do smoke test, fit fire, do spillage test, if it all passes cheapest job you could get.

You should have permanent ventilation for the back boiler. No longer required so you can now block it up to save fuel.

Fire will stand you in good stead even when you have your new heating system.

Keep the manufacturers instructions and never alter the position of the false coals/pebbles there is only one way they work safely, and you need manufacturers instructions to know that way. Never buy a pack of coals from a shed for an ilfe.

 

[sidecar_jon]

just what i needed to know...ta very much Paul...

one question tho. I presume the chimneys either lined with flexie pipe and it will be too short for the new fire, as the back boilers set further back. Does that mean it has to be lined again with longer pipe?

 

[Paul Barker]

No it's fine, as long as the register plate is intact, but anyway that can be made good.

 

[gasgeezer]

Last time i turned fire off but left back boiler working corgi gave me a rollicking as they are deemed one appliance [must both be safely working]
So would assume in your case the same applies.Stand corrected if wrong opnly going by corgi at time.

 

[Paul Barker]

Don't manufacturers overule Corgi? Gloworm gave me instructions how to disable back boiler and keep fire front in service.


What's the first thing corgi technical ask when you ring with a question? What does the manufacturer say? I soon learned it's always best to ring manufacturer saves a wasted phone call. Of course corgi are there to be called about more general things but any answers they might be called to give we can find elsewhere.

When you think about the back boiler situation using common sense, look at the way the flue is designed. There is no change to the flue arrangement, The fire is designed to work whether the boiler is on or off during normal tandem conditions. So how is the fire to know the boiler is permanently off or just off until 10 oclock?

Only other consideration is the safe isolation of the boiler. Remove the boiler gas valve and cap off the branch from the gas cock to the boiler with tapered iron cap using gas ptfe or whatever paste you normally use, Rocol, Jet Blue? Leak test it.

Isolate electrical power to boiler.

MAke sure the old waterways to the boiler are open, cap off or remove and gobbo up the old pipes to boiler so that there are no compromises to the integrity of the seal of the catchment area.

Now how is there anything different to the fire front operating conditions than when the boiler was occasionally used?

How is the boiler going to ever be a danger, it has no gas supply no electrcity supply and no water supply. It's a dead weight serving the sole purpose of holding the cowling for the fire flue route.

I would stand in any court of law and beat any corgi inspector on the issue, mainly on the basis of manufacturers supoort, but also on common sense grounds, judges are men who decide about reasoned argument, I defy anyone to find a judge who wouldn't follow the above and understand it sufficient to make a sensible judgement.

Were however I faced with the same situation on a Baxi I would make sure Baxi approved.

 

[sidecar_jon]

Well belive me i've been round the block on this one lads. Like i said capped off by first British gas bloke (which was fine i agreed for him to do it, apparently, Well he said .. i have to cap this off is that Ok..and i said yee, yee.... but what else could i say anyway.) there was some confusion as to why he did cap it off, due im sure to my ignorance, so we phoned British Gas.. they sent another Engineer, who didn't look at it just phoned the first engineer.... i realised i wasn't going to get a straight answer. Cos the report sheet said "indaiquet ventilation. But that didn't seem to be the reason, maybe one of the reason but not all... so i gave up fighting. There seemed to me to be a confusion or "regulations" and the law, but i still don't know. I just gave up then and discovered i could maybe get a "homewarm grant" so we applied for that, and Engineer came round assessed it by looking at the red tag... sent a bloke round who was going to do the job, he looked at the red tag and then went on about putting the new boiler in the airing cupbord with vent in roof.... meanwhile its flipin' cold, and we are sitting huddled up on the settee with our five year old lad under a duvet, the guy said it would be 3 months before they did anything, so i asked him if i could remove the Backboiler and get some heating, and he said fine..... so im looking into the best way to do that, with minimal involvement of anyone whos "registered" etc (working within confines of safety) ..cos i cant afford them.

This isn't an attack on Corgi or British gass. Just my experience. Im still confused, even now when the carbon monoxide should have worked out of my system lol

 

[sidecar_jon]

ITS OUT!... what could be better for the day after Boxing day than to take out a back boiler thro a hole about a third too small to get it out properly. Anyway hose pipe on drain, water out to back garden. Took one fitting off with spanner, others wouldn't budge so i hacksawed em off and pulled it all out . First i did check the gas pipe which was indeed neatly capped off with a bright new cap and a short bit of pipe seemed to have been removed (presumable to stop me connecting it back up lol) anyway..... hopes of a lovely fireplace being back there were dashed. I think its had a "Cornish range" in there and it been smashed out with a sledgehammer. All the stone work is higgledy piggledy and they left a lot of ash (!) in there. The flue has a metal linner (joined to make it about 3" longer") and the debris plate is neatly cut but someone has put a hammer thro it..... And worst of all the back boiler was standing on two bits or manky wood the back one being carbonized and charred (it has obviously been burning!) 3/4's through.... i've got hands covered in gazes, a garden full of scrap... but the howling gale tho the chimney has been plugged with kitchen foil for now... cheers.