Dissolving magnetic CH sludge

[livingstoned]

I have some pipework and a cast iron boiler with a lot of flakes of magnetic sludge, magnetite I assume, blocking the pipes.
This came to light as a result of "Difficult pump change", separate thread. This one is ONLY about the chemicals!

I have an old flusher at the back of the garden shed. I'm not sure it still works.

Does anything less than acid dissolve Magnetite? What about X800 or something made by Fernox?
I have descaled a couple of heat exchangers in combis, using kettle descaler, which worked well but slowly, and hydrochloric acid.

Has anyone tried X800 or similar? I'd like to be as nonaggressive as possible.

Whether I can circulate , or just fill and empty, I won't know until I find the flusher.

I know some use chelating agents which turn the iron oxide to iron something else, possibly a sulphate which is soluble, but I don't know.

The boiler is an 80's Netaheat, which if I remember correctly has a brass plug which can be used to drain it. It won't be there long, but I don't want my disturbances to fill it up with sludge.

 

[DP]

Add sentinel x400 to the system. Call the manufacturers and ask their advice.
I have used both x400 and x800 with good results.
As an alternative I have plugged up the header cistern and mains flushed each radiator and used a rubber mallet to agitate the sediment
This was followed up by fitting an Addey Megnaclean which was worth the money as over time it intercepted the magnetite coming back to the boiler. Client had a 1.8 m long radiator that never heated in the middle. Rubber hammer and mag filter cleared the radiator.

 

[ChrisJP]

Don't use acid!
It'll quite rapidly dissolve all copper and brass fittings in the system

 

[livingstoned]

Add sentinel x400 to the system. Call the manufacturers and ask their advice.
I have used both x400 and x800 with good results.
As an alternative I have plugged up the header cistern and mains flushed each radiator and used a rubber mallet to agitate the sediment
This was followed up by fitting an Addey Megnaclean which was worth the money as over time it intercepted the magnetite coming back to the boiler. Client had a 1.8 m long radiator that never heated in the middle. Rubber hammer and mag filter cleared the radiator.

Thanks DP, but I only have a few pipes - the airing cupboard ones, and the boiler, to clear. The pipe configuration caused aeration of the water, and the sludge is bunging the pipes up where the junctions are. The rest of the system isn't too bad. I have a FLIR which shows up blocked radiators, and mine aren't bad.
I need to fill what I have with something which will be aggressive enough on the magnetite. I'm pretty sure X400 wouldn't do much to it. If my old flusher is kaput I'll only be able to fill and empty.


Could you for example use X800, static, on a secondary heat exchanger in a combi which was clogged up?

----

Don't use acid!
It'll quite rapidly dissolve all copper and brass fittings in the system

It's routine to use acids in heating systems. It tends to find leaks and need neutralising, which is a bit of a pain.
Chuck a nonmagnetic "copper" coin in vinegar, it'll go pink but they don't dissolve.

 

[ChrisJP]

Thanks DP, but I only have a few pipes - the airing cupboard ones, and the boiler, to clear. The pipe configuration caused aeration of the water, and the sludge is bunging the pipes up where the junctions are. The rest of the system isn't too bad. I have a FLIR which shows up blocked radiators, and mine aren't bad.
I need to fill what I have with something which will be aggressive enough on the magnetite. I'm pretty sure X400 wouldn't do much to it. If my old flusher is kaput I'll only be able to fill and empty.


Could you for example use X800, static, on a secondary heat exchanger in a combi which was clogged up?

----

It's routine to use acids in heating systems. It tends to find leaks and need neutralising, which is a bit of a pain.
Chuck a nonmagnetic "copper" coin in vinegar, it'll go pink but they don't dissolve.

Ah.. vinegar is acetic acid which is mild and, as you say, won't harm copper and brass. But acetic acid won't have any significant effect on magnetite either.
Stronger acids such as nitric, hydrochloric and sulphuric will quickly dissolve magnetite but will do the same to copper and brass.

 

[DP]

Thanks DP, but I only have a few pipes - the airing cupboard ones, and the boiler, to clear. The pipe configuration caused aeration of the water, and the sludge is bunging the pipes up where the junctions are. The rest of the system isn't too bad. I have a FLIR which shows up blocked radiators, and mine aren't bad.
I need to fill what I have with something which will be aggressive enough on the magnetite. I'm pretty sure X400 wouldn't do much to it. If my old flusher is kaput I'll only be able to fill and empty.


Could you for example use X800, static, on a secondary heat exchanger in a combi which was clogged up?

----

It's routine to use acids in heating systems. It tends to find leaks and need neutralising, which is a bit of a pain.
Chuck a nonmagnetic "copper" coin in vinegar, it'll go pink but they don't dissolve.

You can try x800 but make sure it is well flushed out else it will take your pump out

 

[fixitflav]

Does anything less than acid dissolve Magnetite? What about X800 or something made by Fernox?
I have descaled a couple of heat exchangers in combis, using kettle descaler, which worked well but slowly, and hydrochloric acid.

Has anyone tried X800 or similar? I'd like to be as nonaggressive as possible.

Maybe Fernox F8 would work, and perhaps less aggressive than X800. I used a Fernox cleaner many years ago, 1970s and it did a good job, but the products have changed since then (or the names have)

 

[JohnD]

X400 will loosen sludge. It is not aggressive and will not cause corrosion or leaks. You can circulate it in normal use for a couple of weeks, and you will be surprised how much sediment drains out. If you bang the radiators with a rubber mallet, more will be loosened. If you have an SDS+ drill, and run it, on rotostop, against a wooden block pressed against the radiator, it will shake more loose. A Magnaclean will then trap it.

If you fit a Magnaclean, it will continue to catch the circulating particles which have been loosened but remain, and future ones, preventing them from forming blockages.

 

[livingstoned]

X400 will loosen sludge. It is not aggressive and will not cause corrosion or leaks. You can circulate it in normal use for a couple of weeks, and you will be surprised how much sediment drains out. If you bang the radiators with a rubber mallet, more will be loosened. If you have an SDS+ drill, and run it, on rotostop, against a wooden block pressed against the radiator, it will shake more loose. A Magnaclean will then trap it.

If you fit a Magnaclean, it will continue to catch the circulating particles which have been loosened but remain, and future ones, preventing them from forming blockages.

Thank you John D but I know all that, it appears you didn't read the question.

Stronger acids such as nitric, hydrochloric and sulphuric will quickly dissolve magnetite but will do the same to copper and brass.

Chris JP I appreciate you wish to contribute but you demonstrate that your knowledge of chemistry is lacking and that of and plumbing & heating is not experiential.
Good luck trying to dissolve copper/brass in just hydrochloric acid, or diluted cold sulphuric acid.
Hydrochloric acid has an established place in descaling of plumbing. Acetic acid does attack iron oxides, it creates a soluble salt.

My question is underscored in the original post. NO radiators involved. I am asking how well proprietary descaler products will do in the situation described, which for clarification, does not have a circulation. It is analogous to descaling a blocked secondary heat exchanger once removed from a combi boiler, which is something I have done a couple of times, only. I expect there are many folk on the forum who have more experience of that.

To refine further - has anyone experience of using Sentinel 800, formerly called Ferroquest I believe for descaling a clogged secondary heat exchanger? Fernox, Kamco or others may have more or less equivalent products I don't know about.

 

[JohnD]

Thank you John D but I know all that, it appears you didn't read the question.

It appears you didn't realise I offered an alternative to your opinion.

 

[ChrisJP]

Thank you John D but I know all that, it appears you didn't read the question.

Chris JP I appreciate you wish to contribute but you demonstrate that your knowledge of chemistry is lacking and that of and plumbing & heating is not experiential.
Good luck trying to dissolve copper/brass in just hydrochloric acid, or diluted cold sulphuric acid.
Hydrochloric acid has an established place in descaling of plumbing. Acetic acid does attack iron oxides, it creates a soluble salt.

My question is underscored in the original post. NO radiators involved. I am asking how well proprietary descaler products will do in the situation described, which for clarification, does not have a circulation. It is analogous to descaling a blocked secondary heat exchanger once removed from a combi boiler, which is something I have done a couple of times, only. I expect there are many folk on the forum who have more experience of that.

To refine further - has anyone experience of using Sentinel 800, formerly called Ferroquest I believe for descaling a clogged secondary heat exchanger? Fernox, Kamco or others may have more or less equivalent products I don't know about.

I can assure you that copper WILL dissolve in both nitric and sulphuric acids. I accept that it won't dissolve in hydrochloric acid but iron and steel will and since CH systems have both metals in them, I wouldn't put any of the 3 acids into a CH system.
And yes, acetic acid does react with steel (though not with copper) but the reaction is very slow and not of consequence unless you plan to leave it in a system indefinitely.
I would suggest that you mug up on your chemistry before making rude comments. It's very easy to do if you can use Google!

 

[BigSnoopy01]

X800 works well but only for 24hrs. Use x400 for 2 weeks. Add x800 and flush the next day using mains or pf pump one rad at a time.

A mild acid like kamco fx2 will be even better just neutralise it afterwards.

The acids being mentioned In some post are to strong and will cause damage but mild ones like citric and phosphoric are fine. They will find any weaknesses in the components but so will x800.

 

[Justin Passing]

I can read - "a few pipes and a boiler", so I won't address the IRRELEVANT RADIATORS.
I also read the OP's other post.

JohnD did NOT read the question! The OP asked only about the chemicals! It was even underlined!!! It wasn't about an "opinion"........

ChrisJP , NO you're wrong. Straight Hydrochloric does not "dissolve copper", it has to be with something else as well. It's all about the oxides, look it up. I don't need to, I have tried it and I have an education.
Sulphuric won't either, if it's dissolved and cold. Different if it's strong and hot. Like the OP said, despite what ChrisJP said.
Acetic acid reacts with copper in the same way as HCl - look it up, it's the same type of proton donating acid.. Bronski or somesuch name. Yes slower, only useful as domestic rust cleaner.. It's not a Lewis acid.
Nitric wasn't mentioned!
NOBODY uses sulphuric for CH systems. irrelevant.
Mate, you don't know what you're talking about, you keep getting things wrong.
" It'll quite rapidly dissolve all copper and brass fittings in the system" is absolute JUNK.
I'm not stopping to give you a school chemistry lesson , look it up and DO stop posting misinfornation.

Neither will steel "dissolve in HCl"... Jeeesus. SHUT UP.
HCL has been used for decades as a system descaler , though typically it's "Inhibited". Something else to look up.
Most but not all strong plumbing acids are inhibited.
Oh look it took several seconds to find one uninhibited by the looks.

I have used X800 and DS40 and acetic acid citric acid and HCl and FX-2 (active component phosphoric acid inhibited) and
X400. The wine vinegar did a little but not enough, hot, in a DHWHE.

You wouldn't choose HCl for a stainless steel system - chloride goes for it apparently - but you can use Phosphoric.
But even heated HCl in a stainless DHWHE isn't there long enough to do any harm. They have copper based brazing and fixing posts, which just get cleaned.

I'm pretty sure that if you just tip X800 (I believe the same as the old Ferroquest) diluted, you'd have to leave it a very long time if not circulating. How thorough a job it would do , I don't know, but probably not worthwhile.. I do vaguely remember pouring X800 into a DHWHE from a combi and it didn't do much even with boiling water in the other side, but I may be wrong there. Maybe @BigSnoopy01 has tried it?

I used citric or spirits of salts (32% HCL) which is cheap. You can dissolve it it stll works, and is more gentle. Add acid to water.
I've seen plenty of heavily scaled systems which had already had BG flushes - they used X800. I 'm not sure it removes limescale, the kettle stuff, which grabs hold of rust as well. Boilers get full of that.
X400 wouldn't do enough in your case. Chelating, flocculating, ok but you need more.

I'm not familiar with current Fernox products. I used to own a few renters, when I was very young, which always had awful plumbing so learned - things will have changed.
It looks like their "fast " F3 cleaner is an X800 type thing, with "Power F8" as their citric acid based one (at a high price, that stuff is cheap).
Kamco very much know what they're on about. Their chemicals go right up to "Scalebreaker" which I think - check - 30 seconds to find - yes contains HCL. In fact, I'd give them a ring.

Their FX-2 is gentler but still needs neutralising (Epsom salts in an expensive bottle, iirc)

So My gotos given that you may not be able to circulate, would be citric acid (£6 on ebay) FX40 (citric based) PowerF8, or FX-2. They all I believe need neutralising. Or you could waste a load of plain water as it's ony a limited amount of metal.

LItmus paper (I have a roll from ebay) is handy to check for exhaustion of the acid too. If there's none left you don't have much to neutralise..
Magnesium sulphate £3 on abay.

Acids etc are a bit of a pain to introduce - I had one of these

which came with an 8mm aluminium tube - so I used fittings to get up to pipe sizes. You can circulate with that and a bucket.
Put mother in laws' cheap aftershave in it and you can tell when it's got through.

 

[ChrisJP]

I can read - "a few pipes and a boiler", so I won't address the IRRELEVANT RADIATORS.
I also read the OP's other post.

JohnD did NOT read the question! The OP asked only about the chemicals! It was even underlined!!! It wasn't about an "opinion"........

ChrisJP , NO you're wrong. Straight Hydrochloric does not "dissolve copper", it has to be with something else as well. It's all about the oxides, look it up. I don't need to, I have tried it and I have an education.
Sulphuric won't either, if it's dissolved and cold. Different if it's strong and hot. Like the OP said, despite what ChrisJP said.
Acetic acid reacts with copper in the same way as HCl - look it up, it's the same type of proton donating acid.. Bronski or somesuch name. Yes slower, only useful as domestic rust cleaner.. It's not a Lewis acid.
Nitric wasn't mentioned!
NOBODY uses sulphuric for CH systems. irrelevant.
Mate, you don't know what you're talking about, you keep getting things wrong.
" It'll quite rapidly dissolve all copper and brass fittings in the system" is absolute JUNK.
I'm not stopping to give you a school chemistry lesson , look it up and DO stop posting misinfornation.

Neither will steel "dissolve in HCl"... Jeeesus. SHUT UP.
HCL has been used for decades as a system descaler , though typically it's "Inhibited". Something else to look up.
Most but not all strong plumbing acids are inhibited.
Oh look it took several seconds to find one uninhibited by the looks.

I have used X800 and DS40 and acetic acid citric acid and HCl and FX-2 (active component phosphoric acid inhibited) and
X400. The wine vinegar did a little but not enough, hot, in a DHWHE.

You wouldn't choose HCl for a stainless steel system - chloride goes for it apparently - but you can use Phosphoric.
But even heated HCl in a stainless DHWHE isn't there long enough to do any harm. They have copper based brazing and fixing posts, which just get cleaned.

I'm pretty sure that if you just tip X800 (I believe the same as the old Ferroquest) diluted, you'd have to leave it a very long time if not circulating. How thorough a job it would do , I don't know, but probably not worthwhile.. I do vaguely remember pouring X800 into a DHWHE from a combi and it didn't do much even with boiling water in the other side, but I may be wrong there. Maybe @BigSnoopy01 has tried it?

I used citric or spirits of salts (32% HCL) which is cheap. You can dissolve it it stll works, and is more gentle. Add acid to water.
I've seen plenty of heavily scaled systems which had already had BG flushes - they used X800. I 'm not sure it removes limescale, the kettle stuff, which grabs hold of rust as well. Boilers get full of that.
X400 wouldn't do enough in your case. Chelating, flocculating, ok but you need more.

I'm not familiar with current Fernox products. I used to own a few renters, when I was very young, which always had awful plumbing so learned - things will have changed.
It looks like their "fast " F3 cleaner is an X800 type thing, with "Power F8" as their citric acid based one (at a high price, that stuff is cheap).
Kamco very much know what they're on about. Their chemicals go right up to "Scalebreaker" which I think - check - 30 seconds to find - yes contains HCL. In fact, I'd give them a ring.
View attachment 373098
Their FX-2 is gentler but still needs neutralising (Epsom salts in an expensive bottle, iirc)

So My gotos given that you may not be able to circulate, would be citric acid (£6 on ebay) FX40 (citric based) PowerF8, or FX-2. They all I believe need neutralising. Or you could waste a load of plain water as it's ony a limited amount of metal.

LItmus paper (I have a roll from ebay) is handy to check for exhaustion of the acid too. If there's none left you don't have much to neutralise..
Magnesium sulphate £3 on abay.

Acids etc are a bit of a pain to introduce - I had one of these
View attachment 373099
which came with an 8mm aluminium tube - so I used fittings to get up to pipe sizes. You can circulate with that and a bucket.
Put mother in laws' cheap aftershave in it and you can tell when it's got through.

I'm afraid there's a lot of nonsense hear but I really can't be bothered to go through this lengthy post and comment on it all.

 

[livingstoned]

Thankfully some were able to read the words and make relevant suggestions. As said, there are no radiators involved here. When i get the acute blockage problem sorted I can think about flushing the entire system which as i explained in the other thread isn't too bad according to the FLIR.

To ChrisJP you are the one with all the nonsense. It may be best if you did not attempt to answer when the the matter is beyond your knowledge and experience, here plumbing and chemistry. You are simply wrong. That was intimated before. Fortunately I know enough to ignore you, others may not.

@Justin Passing yes those acids you describe as "Bronski" are all Brønsted–Lowry types and will react by the same mechanism but at different rates, with the same metal.

Citric acid is available in the supermarket I see. Those garden spray devices are under £15 so may indeed be useful. We may already have one. A good thought.

If the assembly turns into a dissolved mass on the floor as ChrisJP seems to think, I promise to let you know.