Fast Flow Shower Trap

[BomberC]

I've recently had a replacement en-suite shower installed with a fast flow trap. The plumber increased the angle of the drain for a better flow (not that there was a problem with the old one). But the new shower doesn't drain, unless you break the seal of the trap - at which point a load of air bubbles through the water that's collected in the shower tray and then the water starts draining quickly. Whilst water is draining I can re seal the trap and the water carrys on draining out, no problem. But the next time the shower is used then the problem re occurs. Is this anything to do with re sealable traps ?

 

[Softus]

Have a look at the entire run of the waste between the shower trap and the soil pipe.

I have a hunch that your plumber's 'improvement' has created a tendency for it to air lock.

 

[BomberC]

Thanks for that. This certainly sounds like what's happenning. So what would the remedy be ? All he did was increase the drop in the waste - the other one had almost no drop at all - but I can't think why that would create an air lock ?

 

[Softus]

Can you describe how the waste runs between the trap and the point where it joins any vertical pipe (e.g. soil stack)?

And when you say that he increased the drop, exactly how did he achieve this?

For example, if the waste connected directly to a stack (vertical soil), then to drop that waste he would have had to connect to a lower point on the stack.

Also, re-reading your earlier post, what you mean when you say "break the seal"?

 

[BomberC]

Thanks Softus. He was able to increase the angle of fall without moving the connection to the soil stack, he just put a block underneath the pipe near to the shower tray to lift it further away from the ceiling of the room below. The shower tray is recessed into the floor, so there's not a lot of space in the ceiling cavity for a drop anyway - I suspect he's just increased the fall by a few degrees. So essentially the waste water runs out of the trap, does a 180 degree turn and then goes along a 1.5 metre section of pipe (the one he's raised) and straight into the soil stack. The soil stack is vented through the loft to the roof.

The "seal" I refer to is a rubber seal which seals the trap around the waste hole of the shower tray. In detail, the trap is a "fastflow" trap from a well known high street chain, so tried and tested, although we are wondering if it's faultly. The best way to describe it is to imagine a bucket (outer), from which the waste ultimately flows out to the waste pipe. Sitting in the bucket is a second (middle) bucket which doesn't quite come to the top of the outer bucket, and within this is a hard plastic inner tube which doesn.t quite go to the bottom of the middle bucket. The middle bucket and tube can be lifted out for cleaning, and replaced with the seal sealing the trap so that waste water flows down the inner tube, out of the bottom and up the side between the inner tube and the middle bucket. Then over the top of the inner bucket and then into the outer bucket and out through the waste outlet.

This works surprisingly well, except that to get it to work you have to loosen the seal, allow air out and then replace the seal. The current thinking is that there's not enough clearence at the bottom of the inner tube for air to enter the system, and that we just chop qtr of an inch off this tube to increase the gap.

Sorry for such a long post !! But many thanks in advance for any idea's or observations.

 

[Softus]

Well, that's a good description, but it seems that we're not sure what the plumber has done.

It's possible that in raising one section of the pipework he's created a problem in another, so I'm curious to know more about this 180° turn you mentioned. What is the distance between the trap and this turn?

 

[BomberC]

Thanks again Softus. To be honest I can't really tell you what the pipework configuration is, as I didn't see it before the shower tray went in. And with it being recessed there's no access to it. All I can tell is that the outlet for the trap is facing the opposite way to where the soil stack is, so the pipe must turn 180 degrees on itself. But how this is configured I just don't know.

I've tried every modification to this trap, and the only thing left to do now is to remove a section of the ceiling from the room underneath to access it that way. At least that way we can mess around with the pipes to see if we can get it going.

 

[cockycockatiel]

Hi,bomberc,
I know this is a late post,and you may have sorted it already(just joined),but I had same problem,tried everything,eventually took the innertube out completely and guess what-great flow -all sorted.I'm thinking that maybe the innertube is just a primer-for the first time you use the shower to get the air out,and then you take it out after that.Hope this helps.

 

[Softus]

I'm thinking that maybe the innertube is just a primer-for the first time you use the shower to get the air out

No. The "inner tube" creates the trap, without which you don't have an effective water seal to prevent foul air venting from the the public sewer.

 

[cockycockatiel]

Not quite right Softus,although I understand what your saying.You see this 'removeable' innertube that Bomberc refers to must sit (or seat) in something else,and indeed it does;-In my trap unit,It's a shallower tube(part of the body of the unit,and not 'removeable'-this alone reaches a couple of mils down into the water;thus making the 'removeable' innertube redundant though still retaining the important water seal you speak of.If Bomberc's unit is like this,then he/she can simply discard this 'removeable' innertube and this simple task may remove the problem(as it did in my case).
So as this relates to a specific problem (water drainage),and a very similar unit(fast flow trap),then as I've said 'HOPE THIS HELPS'.

 

[Softus]

Not quite right Softus,although I understand what your saying.

I don't think you do understand, or you wouldn't tell me that I'm wrong when I'm not.

You see this 'removeable' innertube that Bomberc refers to must sit (or seat) in something else,and indeed it does.

It's kind of you to explain to me how a trap assembles, but it might surprise you to find that I already knew.

In my trap unit,It's a shallower tube(part of the body of the unit,and not 'removeable'-this alone reaches a couple of mils down into the water;thus making the 'removeable' innertube redundant though still retaining the important water seal you speak of.

I didn't write of an "important" seal, but an "effective" one. If you think the water seal is effective without the inner bit, then I invite you to call the trap manufacturer and ask them if they expect it to work effectively without that part.

If Bomberc's unit is like this,then he/she can simply discard this 'removeable' innertube and this simple task may remove the problem(as it did in my case).

You can't remove one problem by creating a second one.

 

[cockycockatiel]

WELL PARDON ME FOR SPEAKING !!!!
In my rather freindly reply to your 'butting' in and stating the obvious -(and yes I was FREINDLY) It may surprise YOU to learn that I was referring to the specifics of MY PARTICULAR fast flow trap (and NOT traps in GENERAL!)-which in effect has TWO sealing tubes ( and therefor not like the single tube common or garden variety of which you refer to in your most ENLIGHTENING and KINDLY lecture ! ) And THAT'S where you misunderstood me. And THAT'S where you went wrong.And THAT'S what the comment ' NO NOT QUITE RIGHT,ALTHOUGH I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING ' was referring to.So a fairly accurate representation of your misinterpretation If you take things into CONTEXT.But If you don't.....well you just might end up looking like a pedantic (use the dictionary) fool who's just spit his dummy out .So YES I can take one out,and because the other one is still in place---NO I wont be losing an effective seal! DO YOU GET IT ? DO YOU GET IT YET ? DO YOU GET IT NOW ?
I'M STILL WAITING..................Oh forget it !
Anyway,where were we? Oh yeah..The manufacturer,in all likeliehood did'nt intend for it to be used this way,but when plumbers come and plumbers go; sometimes they leave a life of woe ! Its often left for us to pick up the pieces (could be the start of a new post hey!...or maybe they have ! Sorry,still new to this board) ,but while waiting for the lottery-for another plumber - (I certainly don't need the same one to botch it up again, DO I ?),I do need to effect a solution-which may or may not be temporary but must work!
Of course, NOT all posts are going to be of absolute relevance to the case in point and be an immediate resolution to all our woes,niggles and problems.............BUT THEN AGAIN, YOU MAY NOT HAVE MET.. a .......SOFTUS!!!! DE DERRRRRR!!!!!
This person (or is he/she or it an almighty and omnipotent being from beyond the stars who has graciously come down to our lowly planet in order to relay to us ((after all mere mortals)),some of the most important and most widely guarded secrets of the universe TRAPS), SEEMS to know absolutely everything.Wondrous isn't it.Me thinks that maybe he/she is a plumber,which would be a good thing,because we all know that plumbers never actually completely and utterly balls things up...do they ?
Kindly unsaddle yourself and step back down to terra firma my freind. After all,some people claim that even the son of g*d has been known to come back down to earth on ocassion !!!!
I see you have a like for pedantics (I can see the dictionary coming out) Well heres one for you :
'IMPORTANT' was my word - an ASSUMPTION (naive though it was) hence the lack of quotation marks in its original post.
Also,if you take things out of context,then any fool can make things look like anything they want - exactly what you did here - a low down trick by anybodies standards.
If I sound miffed - then that's because I am ! Your last post sounded nasty,and that's uncalled for.What's called for here are helpful comments. So heres one for you:
The local colleges usually do evening classes in grammar - and they're to do with TRAPS too.
I've had great fun posting this - and I truly hope someone somewhere out there has had a chuckle too.
SEE YE PEEPS !!!!!!

 

[Dan Robinson]

Hey dude, I'm all for constructive criticism, but could you be gracious enough to use proper grammar and punctuation so that we can all enjoy it?

It's hard enough deciphering posters' questions let alone malevolent rantings - no matter how enjoyable and amusing .

Keep up the good work by the way.

 

[Dan Robinson]

A few tips:

Two carriage returns for a new paragraph

Two spaces after a full stop

"did'nt" is spelt "didn't"

Spaces go after commas, not before

Parenthesis are normally used in pairs (like this)

It is not generally good form to begin a sentence with "and"

"i" is used in capitals: "I"


A safe rule of thumb is "i before e except after c", not counting the commonly known exceptions.

A hyphen does not need to precede parenthesis.



Please observe:

• 
  WELL PARDON ME FOR SPEAKING!
  
  In my rather friendly reply to your “butting in and stating the obvious” (and yes I was friendly); it may surprise you to learn that I was referring to the specifics of my particular fast flow trap and not traps in general. Which in effect has two sealing tubes and therefore not like the single tubed, common or garden variety to which you refer in your most enlightening and kindly lecture. I believe that did not understand what my comment of “no not quite right, although I understand what your saying” was referring to. This is reasonable considering your misinterpretation of the context. If you do not agree? Well you just might end up looking like a pedantic fool (use the dictionary) who has just spat his dummy out.
  
  So yes, I can take one of my shower trap’s tubes out; and because the other one is still in place I shall not be losing an effective seal. Do you understand?
  
  Maybe not.
  
  Anyway, where were we? Oh yes. The manufacturer in all likelihood didn’t intend for it to be used this way. However, when plumbers come; and plumbers go, sometimes they leave a life of woe. It is often left for us to pick up the pieces. Perhaps that could be the start of a new thread. Or perhaps it already has been
  
  I apologise. I am still new to this forum; but whilst waiting for a lottery win or for another plumber (I certainly do not need the same one to botch it up again) I do need to affect a solution which may or may not be temporary.
  
  Of course, not all posts are going to be of absolute relevance to the original question; but then again, we may not all have met a “Softus” of questionable provenance!
  
  This person, or omnipotent being from beyond the stars, has graciously come down to our lowly planet in order to relay to us mere mortals some of the most important and widely guarded secrets of the universe – traps.
  
  Wondrous is it not? I believe that maybe he/she is a plumber, which would be a good thing. Because we all know that plumbers never actually completely and utterly balls things up. Or do they?
  
  Softus, my friend, would you kindly unsaddle yourself from your high horse and step back down to terra firma. After all, some people claim that even the son of god has been known to come back down to earth on occasions. I see you have a like for pedantry (I can see the dictionary coming out again) well here is one for you:
  
  'Important' was my word - an assumption (naive though it was) hence the lack of quotation marks in the original post. Also, if you take things out of context then you can make things look like anything you want - exactly what you have done here - a low tactic by anybody’s standards.
  
  If I sound miffed then that is because I am! Your last post sounded nasty, and uncalled for. What is called for here are helpful comments. So here is one for you:
  
  The local colleges usually do evening classes in grammar. I believe they also run courses that include the operation of traps too.
  
  
  I've had great fun posting this; and I truly hope someone somewhere out there has had a chuckle too.
  
  SEE YE PEEPS !!!!!!
  

Not perfect I grant, but when you are calling a kettle black, ensure you are a copper pot.

 

[Dan Robinson]

I found your last but one sentence particularly ironic.