Hi, i'm a fully qualified electrician here in the U.K. A mate of mine has just bought 2 properties in france which he wants me to go over and rewire.(nice free holiday). Does anyone know what voltage or type of wiring system they use over there?
France electrics
- Thread starter t4msy
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Can't accurately answer the second question, but I would have thought that a fully qualified electrician would know the answer to the first question, what with France being in Europe, and all that....
B
breezer
there have been some posts mentioned, but nothing conclusive, other than they seem to switch the neutrals, and do as they please
P
Paul_C
The following two links are scans showing a very broad outline of French circuit arrangements taken from a Legrand catalog (I haven't linked the images directly into the thread as they're rather wide):
http://electrical-contractor.net/PC/Fr1.jpg
http://electrical-contractor.net/PC/Fr2.jpg
The Legrand pages mention 120V in a few areas, but you might have a hard time finding it anymore (and it was actually a 127/220V wye system). Practically everywhere is now served by a 220/380 network (or 230/400 officially).
Note that is is very common for homes to have 3-phase supplies. You'll even find places on 3-phase where the main breaker is set for as little as 15 amps per phase! As the Legrand notes point out, new MCB panels now have double-pole breakers.
In many of the old stone-built properties surface run cables in trunking seems to be the norm, with outlets mounted fairly high.
There are all sorts of peculiar (from an Anglo-Saxon viewpoint) arrangements as well, thanks to EDF's horrendously complex tariff systems. A basic service has a standing charge based on the maximum power rating of the service. Last time I checked, the cheapest option was for a 3kW (yes, THREE kW!) supply, then up through 6, 9kW etc. The standing charge rises rapidly at higher levels, so there's always been a temptation to get by with the smallest service possible. To that end you can run across complex load-sensing contactors, for example to turn off power to heating while extra power is being drawn from regular circuits (e.g. the typical British kettle!).
One pricing option even has six different per unit prices and you can come across indicator units which pick up the coded signals sent the previous night to display which tariff will be operative the next day.
http://electrical-contractor.net/PC/Fr1.jpg
http://electrical-contractor.net/PC/Fr2.jpg
The Legrand pages mention 120V in a few areas, but you might have a hard time finding it anymore (and it was actually a 127/220V wye system). Practically everywhere is now served by a 220/380 network (or 230/400 officially).
Note that is is very common for homes to have 3-phase supplies. You'll even find places on 3-phase where the main breaker is set for as little as 15 amps per phase! As the Legrand notes point out, new MCB panels now have double-pole breakers.
In many of the old stone-built properties surface run cables in trunking seems to be the norm, with outlets mounted fairly high.
There are all sorts of peculiar (from an Anglo-Saxon viewpoint) arrangements as well, thanks to EDF's horrendously complex tariff systems. A basic service has a standing charge based on the maximum power rating of the service. Last time I checked, the cheapest option was for a 3kW (yes, THREE kW!) supply, then up through 6, 9kW etc. The standing charge rises rapidly at higher levels, so there's always been a temptation to get by with the smallest service possible. To that end you can run across complex load-sensing contactors, for example to turn off power to heating while extra power is being drawn from regular circuits (e.g. the typical British kettle!).
One pricing option even has six different per unit prices and you can come across indicator units which pick up the coded signals sent the previous night to display which tariff will be operative the next day.
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Very interesting. Particularly these things:
1) Socket circuits limited by outlets, not area served.
2) Radials only, no rings (well, we knew that).
3) MCBs must now be 2-pole.
4) Rewirable fuses banned.
It seems commonplace on the UK forum, and at other sites, to pour scorn on the filthy foreigner and his sloppy and unsafe regulations, because ours are so superior (an opinion based on little more than xenophobic jingoism IMHO), but what have many people been suggesting for years should be changed over here? Rings, outlet limits, rewirables....
Mind you, it's nice to see that they haven't abandoned the principle that regs should be daft and illogical - lighting circuits are to be 1.5mm² on a 10A fuse or 16A breaker, but are limited to 8 outlets. Must be a big market for 500W lamps in France....
1) Socket circuits limited by outlets, not area served.
2) Radials only, no rings (well, we knew that).
3) MCBs must now be 2-pole.
4) Rewirable fuses banned.
It seems commonplace on the UK forum, and at other sites, to pour scorn on the filthy foreigner and his sloppy and unsafe regulations, because ours are so superior (an opinion based on little more than xenophobic jingoism IMHO), but what have many people been suggesting for years should be changed over here? Rings, outlet limits, rewirables....
Mind you, it's nice to see that they haven't abandoned the principle that regs should be daft and illogical - lighting circuits are to be 1.5mm² on a 10A fuse or 16A breaker, but are limited to 8 outlets. Must be a big market for 500W lamps in France....
The ring is a nice idea but it was designed for a specific situation (there was a copper shortage and they wanted the most economical (on copper) way to suppy 2 3KW heaters in any 2 locations plus small appliances on top) and is kinda irrelevent nowadays
the main problem with limiting by outlet count is it encourages use of extention leads. The real issue is its hard to accurately estimate loading so the standards boards need to set down some conservative rule of thumb.
2 pole mcbs make a lot of sense (any idea how they configure thier boards?) especilly with rcds involved it really ****es me off that i can't easilly isolate cuircuits in a way that will stop the rcd tripping.
Banning rewirables seems sensible at least domestially It just too tempting to put the wrong wire in. Also many fuse carriers have the problem of danger if you try to replace them against a fault.
afaict there is nothing really wrong with NEW COMPLIANT continental wiring BUT cowboy wiring and old systems without proper earthing seem far more common.
Finally both german and french systems have the worrying property of earthed plugs fitting non-earthed sockets in many cases.
the main problem with limiting by outlet count is it encourages use of extention leads. The real issue is its hard to accurately estimate loading so the standards boards need to set down some conservative rule of thumb.
2 pole mcbs make a lot of sense (any idea how they configure thier boards?) especilly with rcds involved it really ****es me off that i can't easilly isolate cuircuits in a way that will stop the rcd tripping.
Banning rewirables seems sensible at least domestially It just too tempting to put the wrong wire in. Also many fuse carriers have the problem of danger if you try to replace them against a fault.
afaict there is nothing really wrong with NEW COMPLIANT continental wiring BUT cowboy wiring and old systems without proper earthing seem far more common.
Finally both german and french systems have the worrying property of earthed plugs fitting non-earthed sockets in many cases.
Just don't short N & E and you'll be fine....plugwash said:
But I know what you mean...
Thanks for the replies very intersting. I know this building is a very old stone cottage. So the wiring is probably ancient. I am trying to work out whether i would be able to take the electrical accesories i.e. consumer unit, sockets pendants with me or i would have to buy them out there.
B
breezer
I get the impression you havent been to site yet.
I would not do the job without going to see it first, you may need specialist tools, (i dont mean extra big ammer) it may be be 50 foot tall and he wants outside lights and walls are 2 foot thick.
I could go on.
Go over there and look, measure etc.
I would not do the job without going to see it first, you may need specialist tools, (i dont mean extra big ammer) it may be be 50 foot tall and he wants outside lights and walls are 2 foot thick.
I could go on.
Go over there and look, measure etc.
P
Paul_C
When it comes to the color coding on an old installation, it seems one should assume nothing and test everything in France.
Several of us discussed this on another forum, pulled together as much information as we could find and I even posted on a French forum to see if we could sort out the inconsistences in color codes we'd come across.
Apparently there were multiple systems in use in France, although one common system in the past used green, yellow, and brown for phases, gray for neutral, and white for earth. A couple of people said they'd even come across the German standard in France, which used to use red for earth!
It seems the mess of color coding led to the introduction of the new standard somewhere around 1970, which adopted the now standard European blue for neutral and green/yellow for earth. Phases were then black, red, and brown, but with other colors still used sometimes for switch lines, travelers, etc.
Several of us discussed this on another forum, pulled together as much information as we could find and I even posted on a French forum to see if we could sort out the inconsistences in color codes we'd come across.
Apparently there were multiple systems in use in France, although one common system in the past used green, yellow, and brown for phases, gray for neutral, and white for earth. A couple of people said they'd even come across the German standard in France, which used to use red for earth!
It seems the mess of color coding led to the introduction of the new standard somewhere around 1970, which adopted the now standard European blue for neutral and green/yellow for earth. Phases were then black, red, and brown, but with other colors still used sometimes for switch lines, travelers, etc.
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Paul_C said:
Paul, me old china, that goes for any install!!
Ever been caught out by turning off the CU - surely everything must be dead? - then you discover the cable you've just sliced through was live and connected to the incoming tails?
Don't forget - DP MCBs..t4msy said:
Schuko sockets might be cheaper there than here?
Do they have any rules there about who can buy stuff?
Looks like Schuko sockets on here:
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