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Kitchen circuit ?

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by craig1, 20 Nov 2005.

  1. craig1

    craig1

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    Hi,

    When installing a new radial kitchen circuit what would be the best

    side of the cu, RCD or non RCD. Concerned as im aware that the

    freezer will trip the RCD but this is located in the garage, but would

    any other appliances such as the washing machine or fridge cause

    nuiscance tripping.

    any advice appreciated!
     
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  3. Johnny101

    Johnny101

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    Circuit should be RCD side of the CU. Downstairs sockets should be RCD side. Why are you installing a radial circuit and not a ring?
     
  4. dingbat

    dingbat

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    If it's sockets you are installing then it must be on the RCD side.
    Actually, it's not thatthe freezer may trip the RCD but what will happen to the freezer contents should anything trip the RCD while you are away. Some older appliances may cause nuisance tripping.

    As your freezer is in the garage any socket in there will also need to be RCD protected - there is no way you could argue that it will never be used to power portable equipment.

    Your best option is to run a separate non-RCD radial circuit to the garage and use this to supply a socket with its own RCD protection. At least this way a fault causing your CU RCD to trip will not affect your freezer.
     
  5. Spark123

    Spark123

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    Why must they be on the RCD side? I would say I would strongly advise to put them on the RCD side, but it is only a requirement of the iee regs for certain circumstances, i.e. TT systems or reasonably expected to supply equipment outdoors.
    Or change the freezer plug+socket for a different type i.e. the MK safetyplugs with the different earth pin:
    [​IMG]
    K1257 WHI
    [​IMG]
    647 WHI
     
  6. dingbat

    dingbat

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    Because any socket on the ground floor can reasonably be expected to be used to supply portable equipment outdoors. You would have a hard time of it arguing to the contrary with any of the registration bodies that now exist.
     
  7. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    I disagree entirely.

    If you document what you have done, and label the sockets, and make suitable provision for sockets which can be used outdoors, then it would be completely unreasonable for somebody else to ignore those and use one labelled NOT RCD PROTECTED - DO NOT USE TO SUPPLY EQUIPMENT OUTDOORS.
     
  8. dingbat

    dingbat

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    Until recently I would have agreed with you, Bas. Indeed I have done it myself. But, as I said, you could have a hard time convincing an assessor from any of the schemes that this is acceptable. I have heard of three assessments recently (with three different scheme providers) where the provision of non-RCD ground floor sockets was hotly argued.

    One of them was a dedicated non-RCD socket for the freezer, mounted in a cupboard and labelled accordingly. You would actually have to reach behind the freezer to get to it. It was reluctantly accepted provided the double socket was changed to a single, but it was only because the assessee, in his argument, demonstrated a thorough understanding of the regulations, that he passed.

    Can occupants of houses be trusted to act 'reasonably'? There is plenty of evidence to the contrary in all areas of daily life. Labels get lost, certificates and accompanying notes do not get read. (Some people, cant actually read) In the workplace it would, indeed, be reasonable to expect people to follow health and safety guidance, but at home there is no such certainty. People will happily do whatever suits them at the time.

    In this thread, as the freezer is in the garage, the socket that feeds it is a prime candidate for powering outdoor kit. I like the idea of using a safety plug, but how long before the strimmer/lawnmower/hedge trimmer/power washer acquired its own 'safety' plug?

    Should an incident and subsequent inquiry call for me to defend my design rationale, I would be in a far better position if I had made every effort to prevent the householder from making his own decisions about what constituted safe practice, than if I had trusted him to act 'reasonably'.
     
  9. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    That's just the assessors being bolshie and trying to demonstrate that they are more knowledgeable. Also, don't forget that for many assessors if they fail someone they get paid more.

    There you are then, once the peon showed that he would not be browbeaten, the case for the prosecution collapsed.

    They can, and they must, and if you think about the meaning of the word "reasonably" then there is absolutely no need to behave in a way which assumes anything else.

    If they can't read then they face all manner of risks that it would not be reasonable to try and prevent because they can't read. Look in the cupboard under the sink and in your shed for examples of all manner of products which could be dangerous or even lethal if misused or mis-combined. Should the sale of them be banned because some people may not be able to read the warning labels?

    That's down to them. As soon as they act unreasonably then they have put themselves at risk, nobody else.

    There are countless examples in every day life of products and environments where it is plainly assumed that people using the products or operating in the environment will behave reasonably.

    Show me such a product which does not come with advice to use an RCD. Ignoring that advice is unreasonable.

    As you can see, I disagree entirely. If you really felt that you could not trust someone to behave reasonably you wouldn't give him an electrical supply in the first place.

    Or a gas supply.

    Or anything sharp.

    Or stairs.

    Or any household cleaning agents.

    Or any garden chemicals.

    Or any plants that are poisonous.

    Or...

    Or...

    Or...

    You are not responsible for what happens if someone acts unreasonably.

    Your job is to ensure the safety of the system when used reasonably.
     
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  11. dingbat

    dingbat

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    :rolleyes:

    What must it be like to get the last word in? (...sigh...)
     
  12. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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  13. dingbat

    dingbat

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    Moi non plus.
     
  14. craig1

    craig1

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    So the kitchen circuit has to be on the RCD side of the CU.

    And no appliances will nuiscance tripping including the freezer.


    Cheers for the info.
     
  15. Damocles

    Damocles

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    Just to but in. I have never hauled out a kitchen appliance of any description so I could use the socket behind it to power portable equipment. But I have more than once thrown an extension lead from an upstairs window, when this was the most convenient way to get power outside. Now who was arguing that it was not necessary to have RCD on upstairs sockets, but it must be on hard-to-get ones? Bit unreasonable that?
     
  16. Albert

    Albert

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    I am pleased that you mentioned the upstairs sockets as I would not like to get in the 'fire line' of these two... :D
    At home as the installer did not put a split board, I changed all my outlet socket circuits from MCB's to RCBO's, I know that this is required in case that a socket might be used outside and I overdone it, but this is what I do now and recommend my customers, all sockets on RCD (where possible). I know that some people will not agree, but this is what I do.
     
  17. ebee

    ebee

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    YIPEE,
    At last someone who agrees with me that upstairs sockets should be RCD`d.
    Just when you thought you were alone - a kindred spirit
     
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