Kitchen Wiring Diagram

Joined
21 Jul 2009
Messages
1,677
Reaction score
89
Location
Derby
Country
United Kingdom
in a modern house with modern minded folk, how likely is it that 2 x 13A devices would be plugged into the same socket?

You can get 3kw toasters and 3kw kettles, and yes they could sit side by side and use the same d/socket :D

Given the consideration about load positions, does that mean that the designer who installed a ring circuit for the kitchen did a good job?

Foreseeing a 6kW load at one point on a ring and still thinking it was a good idea?
 
Sponsored Links
Joined
27 Aug 2003
Messages
69,782
Reaction score
2,884
Location
London
Country
United Kingdom
Ok, a 4mm radial will do the same job as a 32A ring but it's more expensive to buy
So it's 20-30p more per meter. Against that you need less of it and it takes less time to test.


and more hassle to work with than 2.5mm.
Shouldn't be a problem for a competent person.


I'm not saying it's not an option but if you're quoting for someone on a tight budget, often a ring is the easiest option.
That doesn't make it the best one.


There's no safety problems with a correctly installed ring,
It's far more likely that rings will become incorrectly installed over time than radials. How many incorrect spurs are there out there?


just what do you think is the problem with having a few large loads on it?
Imbalance.


The CPD will operate before there is any danger.
Not with imbalanced loads < In


Am I right in thinking that BS7671 is used in many places around the world as a standard to work to? So maybe there ARE rings installed in loads of other countries!
How many of those countries have no past colonial connection with Britain?


but there is a multitude of dangers of a bad installation - insulation behind diy downlighters for example.
And the unique ones that ring finals add that you don't get with radials.
 
Joined
23 Oct 2007
Messages
1,100
Reaction score
83
Location
Glasgow
Country
United Kingdom
Ok, a 4mm radial will do the same job as a 32A ring but it's more expensive to buy
So it's 20-30p more per meter. Against that you need less of it and it takes less time to test.

and more hassle to work with than 2.5mm.
Shouldn't be a problem for a competent person.

I'm not saying it's not an option but if you're quoting for someone on a tight budget, often a ring is the easiest option.
That doesn't make it the best one.

There's no safety problems with a correctly installed ring,
It's far more likely that rings will become incorrectly installed over time than radials. How many incorrect spurs are there out there?

just what do you think is the problem with having a few large loads on it?
Imbalance.

The CPD will operate before there is any danger.
Not with imbalanced loads < In

Am I right in thinking that BS7671 is used in many places around the world as a standard to work to? So maybe there ARE rings installed in loads of other countries!
How many of those countries have no past colonial connection with Britain?

but there is a multitude of dangers of a bad installation - insulation behind diy downlighters for example.
And the unique ones that ring finals add that you don't get with radials.

:yawn:

How about Saudia Arabia and Dubai? Were they colonial (before my time mate)? Any anyway half the world was once part of the british empire so a pretty poor argument on your part.

Seeing as you have probably only ever installed one or two kitchen rings in your time (or none, judging by your opposition to them) i'll assume you don't actually have that much experience of it, and most probably zero in 120 yr old tenements, not to mention no experience of quoting for it so probably best to stick to what you know, implying that i'm not competent and all that. :rolleyes:

Please can someone point me in the direction of how to calculate the point where an unevenly balanced ring will become an overload? I'm sure it's a pretty easy calc, someone must have it????

Has ANYONE got pictures/link to actual evidence of the results of an unbalanced ring installed by a competent spark?

Yes, spurs can be added later by diyers but you can't install worrying about what some numb-nut will add later or you couldn't install anything. In my experience you're more likely to find an installation with no earth than one with non-compliant spurs.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this because I have no intention of being drawn into a 5-page BAS-ination. :D
 
Sponsored Links
Joined
19 Jan 2007
Messages
4,289
Reaction score
394
Location
London
Country
United Kingdom
inForeseeing a 6kW load at one point on a ring and still thinking it was a good idea?

How can we / you / anyone design for portable appliances ? Yes you can do OTT design, have 2 or 3 circuits for sockets in a kitchen- but doing that means you won't win bidding business when the work is offered at less that 50% of a fully designed system that countenances 3kw appliances !

I'm not trying to show up your post, simply adding in the very real fact that some domestic kitchen appliances (even in today's energy saving world) are rated at 3kw and could cause load issues.
 
Joined
2 Jun 2005
Messages
14,841
Reaction score
477
Location
Cumbria
Country
United Kingdom
in a modern house with modern minded folk, how likely is it that 2 x 13A devices would be plugged into the same socket?

Not saying it can't happen, but i've never seen it in a domestic setting.

Can anyone cite any real examples?

I'll take Chri5's kettle and toaster and raise him a washing machine and tumble drier!
Had one with a 2 way unfused adaptor into a double socket with a dishwasher a while back, the socket had gone a bit crispy.
 
Joined
27 Aug 2003
Messages
69,782
Reaction score
2,884
Location
London
Country
United Kingdom
How about Saudia Arabia and Dubai? Were they colonial (before my time mate)?
Economically and politically there was a very significant UK presence in the whole region for over 300 years - the British residency of the Persian Gulf was an official colonial subdivision (i.e., residency) of the British Empire from 1763 until 1971. Not directly including Saudi Arabia but it would not be surprising if the influence and local ties led to influence of electrical standards. Do either countries have ring finals though?


Any anyway half the world was once part of the british empire so a pretty poor argument on your part.
That still leaves the other half.


Yes, spurs can be added later by diyers but you can't install worrying about what some numb-nut will add later or you couldn't install anything.
You can, and should, consider future maintainability and flexibility.
 
Joined
21 Jul 2009
Messages
1,677
Reaction score
89
Location
Derby
Country
United Kingdom
inForeseeing a 6kW load at one point on a ring and still thinking it was a good idea?

How can we / you / anyone design for portable appliances ? Yes you can do OTT design, have 2 or 3 circuits for sockets in a kitchen- but doing that means you won't win bidding business when the work is offered at less that 50% of a fully designed system that countenances 3kw appliances !

I'm not trying to show up your post, simply adding in the very real fact that some domestic kitchen appliances (even in today's energy saving world) are rated at 3kw and could cause load issues.

does that go further to suggest that ring finals are an outdated way of installing?

BTW, i would still be interested to see a pic of the back of a socket which is rated at something other than 13A
 
Joined
13 Aug 2008
Messages
115
Reaction score
7
Location
London
Country
United Kingdom
skenk wrote:
How about Saudia Arabia and Dubai? Were they colonial (before my time mate)?

Economically and politically there was a very significant UK presence in the whole region for over 300 years - the British residency of the Persian Gulf was an official colonial subdivision (i.e., residency) of the British Empire from 1763 until 1971. Not directly including Saudi Arabia but it would not be surprising if the influence and local ties led to influence of electrical standards. Do either countries have ring finals though?

What a very long winded way of saying no.
 
Joined
27 Aug 2003
Messages
69,782
Reaction score
2,884
Location
London
Country
United Kingdom
Sorry - I'm afraid that sometimes a simple "no" does not provide a sufficiently informative answer.

If you weren't so simple that you couldn't grasp that then you would have been able to see from my answer that this was one of those times.
 
Joined
13 Aug 2008
Messages
115
Reaction score
7
Location
London
Country
United Kingdom
'If you weren't so simple that you couldn't grasp that'

No, i could grasp that you were trying to avoid saying no by giving numerous reasons why really in your opinion it should be yes to support your argument.

The question was easy, was Saudi a colony, the answer is no. Though i see your acidic tone continues BAS, what a delightful creature you are.
 
Joined
27 Aug 2003
Messages
69,782
Reaction score
2,884
Location
London
Country
United Kingdom
No, i could grasp that you were trying to avoid saying no by giving numerous reasons why really in your opinion it should be yes to support your argument.
Utterly wrong on all counts.

What was I saying about you failing to grasp things?


The question was easy,
Yup, but apparently the answer was too hard for you.

was Saudi a colony,
What was I saying about you failing to grasp things? You can't even read plain English.

Were they colonial
Not "were they a colony" - "were they colonial"

That question was related to one I posed earlier:

Why has every country in the world without a British colonial connection stuck to radials?

and then repeated:

Am I right in thinking that BS7671 is used in many places around the world as a standard to work to? So maybe there ARE rings installed in loads of other countries!
How many of those countries have no past colonial connection with Britain?

Note what I wrote, if you are able to, and note that I did not talk about countries which used to be colonies, I used the term "colonial connection".

And I did so for a very good reason, the significance of which apparently goes right over your head, but I will try to explain. Countries can have significant social, economic, cultural, technical etc influences on other ones without them actually being a colony. On such example would be where a non-industrialised nation has businesses from another country set up shop in order to exploit mineral wealth. If those businesses find no existing infrastructure they are going to create their own - they are going to import electrical generating equipment and installation components, for example, and workers to design and install them, and chances are they will adopt the systems with which they are familiar from their home country.

Now read what I wrote again, and this time try to understand it.

The British residency of the Persian Gulf was an official colonial subdivision (i.e., residency) of the British Empire from 1763 until 1971.


the answer is no.
If necessary read it again.

If you want a simple answer it is "yes", because there was a considerable colonial connection, a considerable amount of colonial influence in the area for a long time, including the period during which electrical infrastructures would have been introduced.


Though i see your acidic tone continues BAS, what a delightful creature you are.
Well, excuse me for being extremely p*****d-off by people completely failing to read what I write and getting it completely wrong because they are either unwilling or unable to pay attention, and then arguing with me over it.
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Top