LED or CFL

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by JohnBoyII, 11 Mar 2018.

  1. JohnBoyII

    JohnBoyII

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    I've been using the CFL lamps
    • Prolite Helix Eco T2 25W (Daylight, 100W equivalent, BC), outside
    • Sylvania Mini Lynx Compact Candle 9W (40W equivalent SES), inside
    Are there LED alternatives to these bulbs? I've seen something called LED Corn Light 5730SMD bulbs, which look like they might do the job but they don't say what the equivalent light is, or if they can be used outside. TLC Direct also do a LED filament candle (https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LACL4SESO.html) but not sure if they are same as the corn bulbs.
     
    Last edited: 11 Mar 2018
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  3. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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  4. JohnBoyII

    JohnBoyII

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    Thanks, yes I bought a LED bulb off ebay once and it stopped working pretty quick. I've been buying them from TLC Direct since and have never had any problems.

    Overall though, do you think I'm better off sticking with my CFLs or is it time to move to LEDs?
     
  5. Taylortwocities

    Taylortwocities

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    LEDs, all day long.
     
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  6. JohnBoyII

    JohnBoyII

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    Great, any suggestions what I can use instead of the Prolite outdoor and mini candles, and where might be a good place to get some
     
  7. John D v2.0

    John D v2.0

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    Definitely led, instant on and better lumens per watt and life.
    Last led I used is 155 LM/w, I checked all my old CFLs and they are well under 100 even when new and warmed up.
     
  8. nitro23456

    nitro23456

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  9. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    I know they use little electricity, but even so that's a waste - better to use them only at night.
     
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  11. Taylortwocities

    Taylortwocities

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  12. ericmark

    ericmark

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    In a bulb shape in the main LED wins, however there is a problem in the way light is projected away from the base, so in general with the base at bottom and a white ceiling the base is kept cool and the light is reflected off the ceiling giving a good spread of light, but if ceiling not white then does not work as well. I found in general both CFL and LED bulbs need to be lower output and more of them. So living room tungsten was two 100W bulbs, this changed to 6 x 40W bulbs two groups of three, to get more light, went to 6 x 11W CFL but did not look good so moved to 10 x 8W globe CFL, however rather a failure bulbs had very short life so went to 10 x 3W candle LED lamps from Lidi, room looked bright, however hard to read, so also fitted new lamps in mothers house with smaller rooms, so the 3W went into mothers house, and 5W globe fitted into my house for Home Bargains this is a problem, working out size required. However from 1979 to today the living room started at 200W then 240W (some times fitted 60W so even higher) then 66W then 80W then 30W and finally 50W. So today use a 1/4 of the power to light the room, however also had to change central heating originally one boiler did domestic hot water and space heating, now a separate boiler for domestic hot water, as heating not supplemented by heat from lights any more.

    But move from living room to kitchen and the story changes, kitchen extended so today even during the day it needs electric light, apple tree does not help, but two fluorescent tubes in line, now a fluorescent tube 65W was used for new section, however these were discontinued, now only 58W are available, so either I had to remove lamp, replace the ballast (or whole lamp) and refit, or I could slightly change internal wiring and fit a LED replacement for the fluorescent tube, being lazy I went to LED, however the LED was 24W and fluorescent 58W so lumen for LED 2400 and for fluorescent with electronic ballast 5500 approx, so light output around half that of the fluorescent, lucky that half of kitchen can still be used with less light, but when the tube went in the other side of kitchen it was replaced with fluorescent as needed the light, also 6 foot tubes hard to find as LED, 5 foot and less yes loads but 6 foot not so many. You can get 50W LED tubes, but in the main the LED tube is designed so although you can remove the ballast, with a wire wound you don't have to, all you do is change the starter. This means the ballast gives off heat, so even when the 24W is rated at 2400 lumen, when the ballast is not removed it uses more than 24W so not as good as they seem on paper.

    Now the 2D lamp is also classed as a CFL, some of these specials give out nearly the same lumen per watt as the LED replacement, especially if the old ballast is left in place, so although with a bulb the LED is often better than CFL this is not reflected throughout the range. Both fluorescent tubes around 95 lumen per watt LED around 100 lumen per watt, when between 18 and 70 watt, however as a bulb the CFL drops to around 50 lumen per watt and LED around 70 lumen per watt. There is a problem in the way lights are wired, we often run the switched line and permanent line together in the same cable, and we allow a small amount of current to flow through electronic switches to actually work the switch, so unless a leak resistor is fitted in the bulb they will either flash every so often or glow dim. By law LED lamps must state if they can't be dimmed, most bulbs can be dimmed, this has two problems, one is the leak resistor to stop them coming on dim, the other is if they use a pulse width modulated current regulator it would in the main auto compensate for dimming switch so they would not dim, so in the main bulbs use a cheaper method of current control, the simple capacitor in series, this reduces the over all lumen per watt. So in general the larger the bulb the lower percentage of waste. It does not matter if 3W or 11W the bulb needs to sink the same amount of power so it will not glow with a dimmer switch when switched off. However in general the more LED bulbs the better the spread of light, so a happy medium as around the 5W mark. With GU10 lamps a bit less, because the area giving out light is reduced to allow for cooling fins, around 3W is happy medium, which in general means to use LED lamps also means replacing the fittings, mothers house both rooms down stairs now have two fittings, and this is the main problem with LED, area matters.
     
  13. big-all

    big-all

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    in general if a normal bulb uses 100w a fluro equivillant would be around 24w when new up to about 30w within 6 months as they seem to fade
    an led will tend to be around 11w to compare to a 100w
    as said light spread can be an issue
    but one thing i have noticed is higher input voltage range tends to be less efficient as in 85-250v may be 10w= a 100w but a 200-250v range may be rated at the same 10w but actually use say 6-8w so a narrower operating range can mean more efficient
     
  14. ericmark

    ericmark

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    I do remember being caught out with 58W fluorescent lamps with the old wire wound ballast, voltage made a huge difference, the case in question using 110 volt version which had a step up transformer with 110 and 128 volt tapping, I found it would strike with 0.5 amp but could draw up to 0.8 amp, however the old wire wound ballast is a thing of the past, today the HF electronic ballast auto compensates for volt drop.

    In the same way we have different ways to control LED lamps, so a lamp rated 220 ~ 230 volt often uses a simple capacitor to regulate current, so run it on 200 volt and it does not use the full 10W however neither does it give out a full 900 lumen, like any lamp dimmed both power and output drop, problem with LED colour does not change so the ambiance of dimmed lamps is lost. However with the 85 ~ 250 volt lamp, to work with that range a switch mode or pulse width modulated controller is required, in the main these are more efficient, so 10W will give 1000 lumen what ever the input voltage.

    Very easy to measure watts, however lumen is not so easy, at University we did an experiment flashing a LED and over driving it to get a brighter light, we used a lux meter which showed flashing did not actually increase the output without damage, however our eyes told us they were much brighter. The whole idea of lumen is it is what our eye perceives, however it does not really follow, the closest I can now do to measure light is to read the meter in my camera, not spot on, as camera can see inferred which our eye can't so not spot on. However swap a set of bulbs and find the setting changes from f2.8 and 1/6 second at 100 ISO to f2.8 and 1/20 second at 100 ISO one can measure the change. Some where in my garage I have a variable transformer so I could I suppose set up the experiment.

    However unless you can measure the light, be it lux, lumen or camera EV then I think we have to consider a simple lamp with a capacitor to limit current may have a reduced wattage to label as voltage is reduced, but it also has reduced output, where with a PWM regulator as voltage is altered the regulator does it's job so power in and power out remain static. So reading the label is really the only option, so 10W with capacitor likely 85 lumen per watt, and with PWM controller likely 100 lumen per watt or more.

    So in real terms opposite to what big all says, those marked 85 ~ 250 volt in general have a better lumen per watt output.
     
  15. big-all

    big-all

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    well i dont say it lighty and whilst your finding will be correct in your case it doesnt prove or disprove my finding :D
    i tend to do things through actual findings rather than assumptions
    we cannot take one set off conclusions and compare to another unless all components and connections are identical out off interest how long ago where your conclusions reached
    whilst my findings where not particularly scientific it was percived output as in look at one light then another in quick rotation
     
    Last edited: 12 Mar 2018
  16. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    Seriously?

    You actually had to change the CH/HW system because of the loss of heating from incandescent lamps?


    I expect he just wants to be able to see to park the car/put the bins out/get his key in the lock/not fall down the step outside his front door/etc.
     
  17. ericmark

    ericmark

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    Today with double glazing, and cavity wall insulation there is not a problem, however to alter temperature rather than maintain, as in the evening wanting 22°C and during the day 20°C there was a problem, even today house left empty at 16°C when we visit lifting to 20°C it takes around 3 hours to settle at the new temperature, mainly down to the open plan design of the house rather than anything wrong with central heating.

    However 6 x tungsten bulbs in the living room in real terms resulted in a bulb changed every two to three weeks, it was a regular chore to swap bulbs, we added an extra radiator when we fitted second boiler so living and dinning room have between them three radiators one by the front door is when turned on full around 4.5 kW although the noise is a little too high on full so normally fan set to half speed.

    Not that much different in late mothers house, it will maintain temperature OK, but to set to a new higher temperature just 2°C higher looking at an hour or two before settled at new temperature.

    The tungsten lights however with the inferred output gave one that extra warmth the instance they were switched on, air temperature did not need to raise. I did consider an inferred heater to replace the heat from the bulbs, we had 360W of tungsten lighting so would be around 300W of heating, just not worth the effort, I do now use a programmable thermostat so it is not a single temperature throughout the day.

    To be frank until I had problems with mother feeling the cold I had not noticed how long it took to change the room temperature. We had in both houses gas fires and that was the method used for a fast heat up. However moving furniture around for wheel chair access resulted in furniture being too close to gas fire to safely use it. Now with no mother moaning it's too cold, we will not worry if it does take a long time to hit new temperature.

    We have debated what happens to light? I would assume if light hits a dark surface it is absorbed and turned into heat, so colour of curtains and drawing the curtains before switching on lights must also effect the room heat, even ignoring the heat lost by conduction and convection.
     

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