New kitchen layout - does this comply?

[HarryM]

I am having to alter the electrics in the kitchen for a new kitchen units installation. I will get a qualified electrician to check it out and connect up to the consumer unit, but I would like to get an opinion if what I am doing is likely to be OK.

There is an existing radial circuit which supplies 13A sockets on one kitchen wall which will be untouched. A new radial from a 15A fuse will supply three 13A single sockets on another wall, plus two switched fused outlets to supply the cooker hood and the igniters for a gas hob. The outlet for the hood will be mounted above the top units, and the outlet for the hob in the cupboard unit beneath the hob. All connections are made by 30A junction boxes located in a false ceiling.

Does anyone see any problems with this?

 

[Pensdown]

LOL @ Not To Scale

 

[royster]

You'll need 4mm T'+E for all cabling. Plus I'd be un happy have 2 sockets daisy chained from a JB.

Also PART P is involved here and trying to find a sparky to certify your own work "even if you have only pulled the cables" will be difficult. So its best left for a qualified sparky who will give you a certificate for it.

My advice to you is that if your pulling the kitchen apart get a brand new ring main installed for the kitchen only and flood the place with new sockets. 12 single's or 6 double's is general rule of thumb for a maximum. The reg's specify the maximum is by floor area (16th Edition will tell you everything you need to know).

 

[HarryM]

If two sockets daisy-chained from the JB isn't right, I can install a seperate drop from the JB to feed the second socket. Or lose one of the sockets if that would be best.

But why 4mm cable? Currently all the drops from the JBs are in 2.5mm. It would be easy to get a sparks to put in 4mm from the consumer unit to the JBs if that's what's required, but I wouldn't want to change the other cables unless absolutely necessary.

The house was rewired (probably) in the 1970s with all radial circuits, and as far as I can see all cables are 2.5mm.

A ring main is a good idea, but to get at the other kitchen sockets would mean taking down more wall cladding and would be a major job.

Unfortunately I can't call in an electrician to do the work, because it's mixed up with other building work. The new sockets are on a timber-framed wall from which old chipboard cladding had to be removed to fit a new window. The cable drops had to be installed before the wall was re-clad with platerboard. Also old cabling that fed a cooker had to be removed to install the window.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If two sockets daisy-chained from the JB isn't right, I can install a seperate drop from the JB to feed the second socket. Or lose one of the sockets if that would be best.

Why not lose all of the JBs? You said that this was a new circuit, so why deliberately plan for JBs instead of running the cable directly from the CU to the first socket, then running to the rest of the sockets and FCUs in turn?

But why 4mm cable?

Because 15A is not a lot for a kitchen circuit.

Currently all the drops from the JBs are in 2.5mm.

You said this was a new circuit...

It would be easy to get a sparks to put in 4mm from the consumer unit to the JBs if that's what's required, but I wouldn't want to change the other cables unless absolutely necessary.

You said this was a new circuit...

A ring main is a good idea, but to get at the other kitchen sockets would mean taking down more wall cladding and would be a major job.

Leave the other circuit alone. Just install this new one as a 4mm² radial.

Unfortunately I can't call in an electrician to do the work, because it's mixed up with other building work.

What does your LABC think about that?

 

[Qedelec]

Not taken your Cypralex today, have you Ban!!

 

[HarryM]

Why not lose all of the JBs?

Good idea. But as it would mean taking off the wall cladding again, I would only do this if necessary. Pity I didn't start this thread before starting work!

You said this was a new circuit...

It is, sort off. There used to be a cooker control unit plus a spur to a double 13A socket with a 30A wired fuse at the Consumer Unit. This was redundant and had to come out to have the window fitted. It was necessary to put in the drops in the wall while the cladding was removed, and run in cables for the hob and hood before fitting the kitchen units. All the drops in the wall are accessible in a void below the bathroom floor, and a sparks can connect them differently if he doesn't like what I have done.

Because 15A is not a lot for a kitchen circuit.

This circuit only supplies the low wattage cooker hood and hob igniters, plus a single socket for a fridge. The other sockets are on a bare wall, not above work surfaces and are unlikely to be used for anything other than a vacuum cleaner or such.

As the kitchen is much less than 20m square, I considered a radial in 2.5mm T&E would be appropriate. It will connect to the old cooker fuse on the CU but reduced to 15A and marked as such. (Mainly because it is very difficult to find 20A fuse wire. ) Also there are 3 double sockets from the other radial above the worktops which are the ones likely to get the heaviest usage.

Essentially my question is - does what I am doing meet the regs? I can easily lose the daisy chained 13A socket.

I don't want to call in a sparks just to install this, because there is other electrical work to be done, and I would rather get him to estimate for all the work at one go. It also includes connecting an earth bond to LPG pipework, rerouting a circuit for an immersion heater, and replacing a couple of dodgy rubber clad cables I have found which must have been missed when the house was rewired.

 

[JohnD]

...a 30A wired fuse at the Consumer Unit....

...it is very difficult to find 20A fuse wire....

More work for an electrician, I think. Fuse wire??? Rubber cables??? I think there is more work and expense than you had realised.

If you have a Wylex Standard Consumer Unit with rewirable fuses, you might like to think about upgrading to MCBs. These are still made by Wylex to fit the many old units out there. But consider that yours is bound to be very old.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Why not lose all of the JBs?

Good idea. But as it would mean taking off the wall cladding again,

That doesn't tie up with what you said later...

Pity I didn't start this thread before starting work!

Indeed.

All the drops in the wall are accessible in a void below the bathroom floor, and a sparks can connect them differently if he doesn't like what I have done.

If they are all accessible, why can't they be replaced with a cable going from one accessory to the next with no JBs?

What if the electrician doesn't like the JBs? Will they be accessible for inspection once the bathroom floor/kitchen ceiling is finished? If not then he'll probably refuse to have anything to do with them.

Are you doing all this work without having yet found an electrician, and just making assumptions about what he will be prepared to do?

Essentially my question is - does what I am doing meet the regs? I can easily lose the daisy chained 13A socket.

A1) Wiring Regulations: The biggest issue I can see right now is the accessibility of those JBs once everything is done. Plus the Q below about RCD.

A2) Building Regulations: Depends on what you've told them.

I don't want to call in a sparks just to install this, because there is other electrical work to be done, and I would rather get him to estimate for all the work at one go. It also includes connecting an earth bond to LPG pipework, rerouting a circuit for an immersion heater, and replacing a couple of dodgy rubber clad cables I have found which must have been missed when the house was rewired.

And replacing that wired fuse box. Do you have an RCD on any of the socket circuits?

You do need to get an electrician involved sooner rather than later...

 

[HarryM]

Guys, I'm grateful for your help. But you seem to be picking holes in everything I say. All I was trying to do with this post was to get some feedback on whether anything I was doing would breach the regs. So basically I have a radial circuit in 2.5mm T&E fused at 15A with branches connected by JBs - is that OK?

But to answer some of your points.

The consumer box has wired fuses. It was checked by an electrician a few years ago when he installed equipotential bonding (it's a TT installation with RCD.) It works, and is perfectly legal, so as it ain't broke I don't intend to fix it.

The house was rewired in the 1970s, and the rubber cable which goes to a light in an outhouse was probably overlooked. Otherwise all wiring seems to be modern.

To clarify the JB situation. They are in the void under the bathroom floor. To avoid using them I would have to take the kitchen wall cladding off in order to daisy chain all the sockets. As the wall is an external timber framed wall with structural uprights, I cannot connect them laterally but would have to drop down to each one, and then back up to the void, along to the next one, and then drop down again, etc. That's a lot of cable! And I would have to take the cladding off as it's not just a question of pulling more cables through. There are noggins and beams in the way. Also with single cable drops I have been able to utilise the holes that were previously drilled for the earlier electrics, and I don't want to weaken the 100 year-old structure by widening the holes.

The JBs are under the floorboards in the bathroom and are easily accessible for inspection.

 

[HarryM]

I have had another look at the installation and can lose one of the JBs without too much trouble. Is this better?

 

[HarryM]

No comments... So I'll take that as a yes?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes - better.

 

[HarryM]

Thanks, Ban.