Part P - be very afraid

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See here:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_600372.pdf

For the most part it is a Good Idea - it's basically designed to stop the kitchen fitter or boiler installer or off-duty fireman who has "watched someone else" and now thinks he's an electrician. IMHO, if someone is taking money to do a job then they should be qualified and certified and insured etc - they should be better and more knowledgeable than a DIY-er, otherwise what's the point?

And I guess once you start down that route, you have to have some regulations on what DIY-ers are allowed to do. Let's face it - electricity is dangerous, and some people do do stupid things. And while the consequences are not as potentially disasterous as they are with gas (yes, you can kill yourself. Yes you can create a shock hazard or start a fire which might kill others. No you cannot poison people in their beds, and no you cannot bring down a tower block in a cataclysmic explosion), it's no use pretending that there are no risks.

But there are risks in everything we do, and it's important to balance the prevention of risk against the over-regulation and "nannying" of people. To refer to my earlier rant in another thread, we could certainly save thousands of lives each year if we took away the right of people to operate mechanically propelled vehicles, and restricted their operation to properly trained and certified professionals. Don't think that proposal would be a vote-winner though.

So have they got the balance right here?

As I read it you will have to notify the Local Authority if you intend to carry out any electrical installation work, unless you are officially a competent person, or the work is minor, so DIY-ers, presumably, will be allowed to do minor work without having to tell the Building Inspectors

The definition of "minor work" is:

Where the proposed electrical installation work is minor work and does not include the provision of a new circuit, see Table 1.
Table 1 - Minor electrical installation works in dwelling that need not be notified
1. Additional lighting points (light fittings and switching) on an existing circuit. ( See Note 1
2. Adding socket-outlets to an existing ring or radial circuit.( See Note 1
3. Replacement of accessories such as socket-outlets, control switches and ceiling roses, but excluding circuit protective devices.
4. Installation and/or upgrading and testing of main equipotential bonding.
5. Upgrading and testing supplementary bonding.
6. Replacement of the cable for a single circuit only, where damaged, e.g., by fire, rodent or impact.( See Note 2
7. Re-fixing and/or repairing the enclosures of existing wiring systems.( See Note 3
8. Providing additional mechanical protection to existing equipment.( See Note 4
Notes
1 Only if the existing circuit protective device is suitable and provides protection for the modified circuit and other safety provisions are satisfactory.
2 On condition that the replacement cable is identical in manufactured specification, follows the same route and does not serve more than one sub-circuit through a distribution board.
3 On condition the circuit's protective measures are unaffected.
4 On condition the circuit's protective measures and current-carrying capacity of conductors are unaffected.

Some of this makes no sense - I can replace a cable if it is damaged, but I can't install a new circuit. So when the rats eat my ring main, I can lift floorboards, pull new wires, connect up all the sockets, and wire it into the MCB, but I couldn't at the same time pull wires, fit sockets and connect to a previously unused MCB. Hmmmm....

Or if the rats have chewed through 2 rings, I have to decide whether I now have to do without power upstairs, or downstairs. Hmmmm.....

"On condition that the replacement cable is identical in.... specification...". So if I install a 10kW shower, and my 4mm T/E catches fire, I can replace it with more 4mm, but not with 10mm. Hmmmm....

Or if I already had 10mm, but my 40A MCB kept tripping, I couldn't replace it with a 50A. Hmmmm....

Or if my overhead suspended T/E feeding my garage got broken, I could replace it with more overhead suspended T/E, but not with SWA, or, heaven forbid, a cable buried or in a conduit. Hmmmm....

And when I connect my unwise overhead suspended T/E to the socket in the garage, I'd better not think about replacing the socket with a small CU, or add a light, oh no.

Re Item 3 - I can replace a fused spur outlet, but not the fuse itself? Hmmmm.....

I wonder though, if a hammer accidentally fell several times onto my CU, whether I could claim that a new one was actually a repair to the existing wiring system, and therefore OK as per Item 7? Possibly, unless, of course, the new one had a 30mA RDC, as my old one has a 100mA, and changing it would fall foul of Note 3 and/or 4. Hmmmm....


I won't go on - mainly because I don't think the document I referenced is the full and final horror. If you look at the results of the consultation exercise, ( http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/pdf/odpm_breg_pdf_023509.pdf ) you'll see that all sorts of changes were suggested and adopted for Table 1.

Like you can add ONE socket to a ring, or ONE fused spur, after that it needs to be done by a competent person, or notified to building control and inspected etc etc. Need more? Well - why not buy a bunch of multi-gang extension leads, or some 2 or 3-way adapters. That'll be safer, won't it?

Like ALL work in kitchens must be notified. Broken one of your sockets? Tough. Want to replace the old round pullswitch with a trendy new square one? Nope. Don't like the fluourescent striplight? Bad luck mate, you're stuck with it.



Oh and by the way - don't think, "**** it - I'll do it - who will ever know?", not if you ever want to be able to sell your house, because I'll bet that once these rules come into force, any purchaser will be entitled to ask to see evidence that your new kitchen, or your 10.5kW shower, or your powered shed were installed in conformance to the regulations, just like they can with anything else covered by a building reg. And if you can't produce a certificate from either a person who is competent to self-certify, or a Building Control inspector, what do you think will happen to their offer?

I have a VERY serious suggestion - if anybody out there is planning to do anything next year that is currently OK and won't be next year, at least go and buy all the stuff now - all the cable, all the sockets, the new CUs, the flat-pack kitchen cabinets, the downlighters, the new shower, whatever, and keep the receipts. You have a very small window of being able to get away with it.


Before this, building regs applied to fairly major stuff, like replacement windows, the specifications of central heating boilers, extensions, structural work, new houses etc, not replacing the light switch in the kitchen or adding a few sockets. I think there are going to be a lot of very upset people soon.

This forum will also probably wither and die - just replace it with an autoresponder which says "pay your nearest electrician" Oh - and aren't they going to be made to feel welcome now.....
 
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Interesting,but how the hell the diy'er suppose to know this ! Wait for the leaflets come thru' the door or get arrested first ?! Some of them may be good point but I do think the government are going over the top with these red tapes. I can see a time where the diy superstore will be selling less & less items as it will be illegal for diy'er to buy them.See this from my previous post regarding more red tapes. :rolleyes:

ban-all-sheds,

Have you got a secretary to write all this for you ;)
 
Yes - I found out all about that when I had my windows replaced last year, and also had a new boiler (but don't get me started on the clumsy job the boilerman did when he brought the electricity to it..... :evil: *).

I actually don't have a problem with things like the one you quote - I think it is right that a decent specification for windows should be mandated, I think it is right that boilers should reach minimum efficiency levels. It could have been worse - they could have mandated condensing boilers.

DIY windows replacement? A non-trivial task, and anybody who is capable of doing that is probably capable of passing the inspection. I've no idea what's involved, as not for one minute did I consider DIY.

DIY boiler - perfectly possible, apart from the gas connection, and that really IS a good idea. Just buy a compliant boiler, make sure that the flue exits in the right place and get bending and soldering. I could have done all the non-gas bits myself, except I didn't have the time.

*But I am REALLY unhappy about the fact that if when I redecorate my kitchen I want to bury the cable to the boiler in the wall, instead of having some tatty looking surface mount trunking on display, I have to pay Breezer, or one of his pals, to do it. (Nothing personal, Breezer!)

I'm making list now of all the stuff I ought to buy now to be able to claim that the work I'll do next year was actually done this. Christmas will come early this year at TLC! ;)
 
I think this is b*llocks.

Most people will not abide by this.

All it will do is cause (more) contempt for the law, and people might think less of doing (arguably...) more dangerous stuff like gas work in future.

And in any case, if the exact wording is (as I have seen...) 'a competent person', it may be possible to argue that you are competent without being qualified.

I certainly will not be paying an electrician to do anything in my house, since many electricians have commented that i do a better job than they would themselves.

F*CK OFF, PART P.
 
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sterose said:
I think this is b*llocks.

Most people will not abide by this.
I think most people will, eventually, as word will get round that you should ask for certificates when buying a house. Despite what I think of Part P, I'm afraid I'd be very tempted to use the lack of a certificate to knock a few grand off the price if I was buying somewhere :evil:

All it will do is cause (more) contempt for the law, and people might think less of doing (arguably...) more dangerous stuff like gas work in future.
Possibly, but then that's a generic argument that you can use against any law that some people don't like. Most people have accepted the argument about gas and CORGI, and most people will eventually accept the argument about electrical work. Also, unlike gas, where the requirement to be a CORGI does not apply to DIY-ers (see http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html) , the same is not true of Part P - it will apply to everybody.

And in any case, if the exact wording is (as I have seen...) 'a competent person', it may be possible to argue that you are competent without being qualified.
NO - the new regulations are very specific about the meaning of the word "competent" - it means somebody who is certified as competent by one of the bodies that the government recognise as qualified to administer self-certification schemes - i.e. NICEIC, ECA etc. As many highly qualified and experienced electricians are moaning, their qualifications and experience will be of as much value as a kleenex condom unless they join one of these organisations or schemes.

You might be able to argue that you are competent enough to sign the Design and Construction parts of a certificate, but you will still have to notify Building Control before you start work, and you will still have to have your work inspected and tested by them (or someone they subcontract to).

I certainly will not be paying an electrician to do anything in my house, since many electricians have commented that i do a better job than they would themselves.

F*CK OFF, PART P.
Good luck! :confused:
 
sterose said:
I certainly will not be paying an electrician to do anything in my house, since many electricians have commented that i do a better job than they would themselves.

F*CK OFF, PART P.

unfortunatly i find it hard to beleve that any qualified electrician would tell you that what you have done is better than they do

and i also think this is another one of those last ditch go noware stands that people make before these things come in, there is no way it will stop the goverments plans

AR
 
what will happen is insurance companys will void your house insurance if you havent had your electrical work installed by a qualified sparks

and how many of you non qualified sparks test an installation after it has been completed to ensure the safe working of it

this is not a dig just a observation

electricity is a dangerous thing and can kill just like gas and i bet not many people do that work themselves with out being corgi reg
 
"unfortunatly i find it hard to beleve that any qualified electrician would tell you that what you have done is better than they do"

Believe me or not, supersparks.

When I had my electric shower checked out, his exact words were, "You've done a better job than most electricians would."

Seriously!

And with regards to bussiebuss (and others), I put my first shower in when i was 14 (yes, fourteen) and had no problems with it. Although it took some persuading my mum!

I'm perfectly competent, and i would argue that i am just if not more competent than electricians. They may know the theory, but I actually know how to do safe electrical work in practice.
 
I've had a look at Part P and cannot see where it says installation will need to be done by a qualified electrician.

Granted it says that all work (other than minor) will need to be inspected but this is no different to major building work.

Anyone is still allowed to do the work, it just needs testing/inspecting which would be alot cheaper than getting an electrician in to do the whole job.
 
sterose said:
I'm perfectly competent, and i would argue that i am just if not more competent than electricians. They may know the theory, but I actually know how to do safe electrical work in practice.
I would say this is a very grey area,how do we we know how competent that person is ? Where do we draw the line ? I've been to many property to undo the job caused by competent person and I'm getting fed up with it as it make more work/hassle and embarrassment for customer's to folk out more money.Last month I went to a property where the upvc window would not open and found the reason was the builders has not put in a lintel above the window,just brickwork round it and the weight was forcing onto upvc frame onto the opening window jamming it.I have made it safe by propping it up temporary and they are lucky the whole side of the house could've crashed down.I've refuse to do any more work as they has no drawing plan permission by this so called competent builders.Sadly they are living with it not knowing what to do next.

So if you think you're competent then read this,

When the house is sold your buyer’s solicitors will ask to see a certificate of compliance. Not having one will now stop your sale and could be liable for a heavy fine.

Like it or not,maybe it's not a bad thing with these new rules and regulation.

Also does anyone know when the ' Part P ' come into force ? Again,a grey area as no one tell us do they,find out the hard way again.....
 
First, I can see from your point of view, that I may or may not be a competent person. But I know my level of skill, and whats more is I do not just barge into a job and bodge it. I spend time thinking about how I will do it and the implications of one method as opposed to another. This is why I always do safe work and never have accidents... or bangs.

Secondly, what if I lost the certificate of compliance?
Or I could just say that "some bloke out the paper did the work" and they are in no position to question me.

This law will be, at best, unenforcable.


"maybe it's not a bad thing"
Not bad for who?? As far as i'm concerned, it most certainly is a bad thing :!: :!: :!:
 
With regards to enforcing the law, what people, or rather the government need to realise, is that if you bring in laws that are very unpopular, people tend to treat them with contempt.

Furthermore, this disrespect for the law encourages (or rather removes the disinclinaton for) people to do other dangerous work themselves.

At this point, I would be reluctant to do gas work myself, id rather pay for someone else to do it professionally. However, if I have already shelled out money for an electrician to do the electrics, I might decide to save some money on the gas. It also encourages the view that the law does not reflect the reality, i.e. if the law considers electrics dangerous, but i can work on it safely, I would think that the law is stupid, and perhaps begin to question other laws (e.g. gas).
 
sterose said:
what if I lost the certificate of compliance?
Or I could just say that "some bloke out the paper did the work" and they are in no position to question me.

This law will be, at best, unenforcable.

Spoken to my friend who is a solicitor and said you would have to get a duplicate copy before you can sell the property.At the moment we can't get away with it unless you've got a sleepy solictor !

"maybe it's not a bad thing"
Not bad for who?? As far as i'm concerned, it most certainly is a bad thing :!:
Got to slighty disagree with you there,it really to protect people who are not competent minded in buying the peoperty.

If you think about it,would you buy a car without the log book?
 
But the difference is that a logbook can be replaced by the DVLA (please correct me...)

The problem with electrics is that if i lost the certificate and 'forgot' which electrician performed the work, would my house be forever a millstone round my neck (or perhaps a white elephant would be more fitting), or could i get away with it, or get it checked out 'again'.

So unless the individually serial number all cable, they will not know where it came from or who installed it.
 
"Got to slighty disagree with you there,it really to protect people who are not competent minded in buying the peoperty"

Is that to say the seller or the buyer is not competent ;)
You have bad grammar and english.

But the point is that after I have paid an electrician ££££ or, if Part Poo becomes law, possibly £££££ (because they will charge what they like because its a captive market), I could have just paid a surveyor to check the house electrics out before i bought it.

And like I said, I can see the reasoning behind it, but ultimately, why should i pay ££££ out because some other fool happened to bodge the job and kill someone, whereas im perfectly safe?

Unfortunatly, I would rather let the other guy zzzzz, before I pay out big money.
I mean, what am I, a philathropist? No. ;)
 

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