Part P from the horses mouth so to speak

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Some of you might be interested in a reply I got from local building control (in Southampton) regarding an enquiry I made recently about a fair sized electrical installation in my Garden. I post this only as there seems to be a mystique being built up about part P for the serious DIYers:


"Good afternoon, Mr. Stallard

As your two proposed installations full under the “special locations and installation” category, which can be found in table 2 of Part P of the Building Regulations and is therefore it is notifiable you will indeed need to make a Building Regulations application. A Planning Application is not required for this work.

This application can be made in one of two ways. Either a “full plans application” which will require full drawings and specification of the proposed works. This method will generally take five week to obtain permission. or if you go along the “building notice” route you will be charged the same amount of money and the “full plans” route but once you have paid the fee you can start the work on site with 48 hours.

Within the guidelines of Part P “the proposed installation work is to be undertaken by a person who is a competent person registered with an electrical self-certification scheme authorised by the secretary of state. In these cases the person is responsible for ensuring compliance with BS 7671:2001 and all relevant building regs……………………….the cert must be made out and signed by the competent person or persons who carried out the design, construction, inspection and testing works”.

Therefore if you where going to undertake the above work yourself, we would request an electrical test cert from a registered competent person. Downloadable copies of building notices or full plans forms are available on the councils building Regulations internet site. Or if you wish we can send you a hard copy in the post. Please do not hesitate to contact me

Regards......"
 
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Time for you to push back, then.

Or just notify them, wait 48 hours, and start the work, and when they ask for the certificate tell them to **** off.

The only mystique being built up is by people, including LABCs, who can't read properly.
 
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Time for you to push back, then.

Or just notify them, wait 48 hours, and start the work, and when they ask for the certificate tell them to **** off.

?

I'm having trouble finding what "certification" is specified by the regulations as the conclusion to notifiable work. can anyone help?
Hampered by low-B/W Ku satellite internet out here on the briny.
 
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i contacted LABC a few days ago about a full re-wire. here's the reply.

Andrew,
To keep the work legal in terms of Part P your friend has 2 alternatives.
Firstly he can employ an electrician who is registered under one of the competent persons schemes and Building Control will not be involved other than receiving a notification from his certification body once the contractor has made a return to say that he has completed the work.
The second alternative, which seems to be what you are indicating is that he makes a building regulation application and contracts someone not capable of self certifying (yourself) to do the installation works. Building Control staff will inspect the installation as the works proceed but at the end of the project we will require a copy of a BS7671 certificate or similar to say that the installation has been tested and is satisfactory. If you are not qualified to issue such a certificate then you would have to have the work checked by someone who can. I am sure that because of your training you already know that regardless of the introduction of Part P anyone carrying out electrical works should already give their client a copy of a BS7671 certificate to say the works have been designed, installed and tested and are satisfactory. It was because such certificates were not automatically being given to clients by some contractors that Part P was introduced to safeguard customers
The introduction of Part p was intended by the government to avoid electrical works being carried out by unqualified people and unfortunately from what you have said, my interpretation would be that until you have completed your apprenticeship and passed certain exams/tests you fall within this category and my advice would have to be not to become involved in works for "friends" where you cannot operate as a "true" contractor and give guarantees etc.
Your friend should also appreciate that with the requirements of the home sellers packs from 2007 should he ever want to sell his property he/she will be required to produce copies of such documents as copies of BS7671 certificates for prospective purchasers to prove that any alterations/ electrical works have been carried out appropriately.
Consequently and unfortunately for you my advice would be not to become involved as it would appear that you would not be able to perform all the functions to "keep the work legal"
If you have any further queries please give me a call on [number removed] as its always easier to discuss. You may also want to give my contact details to your friend so that I can explain to them the implications.
regards
[name removed]

basically, he wants someone competent to do all the work, and charge his fee to.. er... fill in a piece of paper....

wish i had his job. summit like £70 to fill in a form. 5 mins each, £840 per hour...
 
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andy :!: youve removed the name but left the telephone no. :eek:

hes coming out for a first fix isnt he?
 
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Mr Winston said:
andy :!: youve removed the name but left the telephone no. :eek:

hes coming out for a first fix isnt he?

oops. removed number.

basically, i said my mate wanted his house re-wired and has asked me to do it. and i want to keep it legal with part P.
gonna send an email back sayin that they are suposed to do the tests. wether i can or not, id rather get my moneys worth and get them to get off their arse in an office and actually test it. fair enough, i could test it and know how, but what if my mate done it alone? he wouldnt be able to test
 
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andy said:
i contacted LABC a few days ago about a full re-wire. here's the reply.
They just don't get it, do they....

To keep the work legal in terms of Part P your friend has 2 alternatives.
Firstly he can employ an electrician who is registered under one of the competent persons schemes and Building Control will not be involved other than receiving a notification from his certification body once the contractor has made a return to say that he has completed the work.
The second alternative, which seems to be what you are indicating is that he makes a building regulation application and contracts someone not capable of self certifying (yourself) to do the installation works. Building Control staff will inspect the installation as the works proceed but at the end of the project we will require a copy of a BS7671 certificate or similar to say that the installation has been tested and is satisfactory.

No - it is their job to inspect & test - ask them to quote the part of the Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210 The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004 where it states that the work must be certified by someone else.

Also ask them to explain the bit in ODPM Circular 8/2004 ( http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_037024.hcsp ) where it says "local authorities do not have the power to require householders to retain an electrician to test and certificate the work in accordance with BS 7671. Local authorities which have adopted such a practice should discontinue it immediately."


If you are not qualified to issue such a certificate then you would have to have the work checked by someone who can.

Ask them how, and on what legal basis they assess whether someone is competent to issue a certificate.

I am sure that because of your training you already know that regardless of the introduction of Part P anyone carrying out electrical works should already give their client a copy of a BS7671 certificate to say the works have been designed, installed and tested and are satisfactory.

If working to BS 7671, yes. Ask them to tell you if there is any legal requirement to work to BS7671, and therefore if there is any legal requirement to issue a certificate.

It was because such certificates were not automatically being given to clients by some contractors that Part P was introduced to safeguard customers
The introduction of Part p was intended by the government to avoid electrical works being carried out by unqualified people and unfortunately from what you have said, my interpretation would be that until you have completed your apprenticeship and passed certain exams/tests you fall within this category

Ask them to explain to you why Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210 The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004 describes the procedure to be followed by "unqualified" installers.

and my advice would have to be not to become involved in works for "friends" where you cannot operate as a "true" contractor and give guarantees etc.

Your friend should also appreciate that with the requirements of the home sellers packs from 2007 should he ever want to sell his property he/she will be required to produce copies of such documents as copies of BS7671 certificates for prospective purchasers to prove that any alterations/ electrical works have been carried out appropriately.

Ask them if they can show you the legislation which says this.

Ask them if they are aware that this requirement was left out of the Bristol trial.

Ask them if they are aware that the Governments feeling is that such a measure would introduce too undue a burden on the home seller and it could be seen as a form of tax on sellers, and that the "best" the ODPM team can now hope for is mandatory "visual inspections".



Consequently and unfortunately for you my advice would be not to become involved as it would appear that you would not be able to perform all the functions to "keep the work legal"

Ask them why they are refusing to carry out their statutory responsibilities to perform the functions to keep the work legal, functions which they are being paid to do via the Building Notice fee.

basically, he wants someone competent to do all the work, and charge his fee to.. er... fill in a piece of paper....

wish i had his job. summit like £70 to fill in a form. 5 mins each, £840 per hour...
Suggest to him that this is your plan, and that of your friends.

1) Submit a Building Notice, with the appropriate fee.

2) 48 hours later, commence work.

3) Ask for a refund if they have not carried out their statutory duties by the time the work is finished.
 
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thanx for the reply ban. i have received another email this mornin.

this is part of it.
If we were to do the testing, and had the ability to do so, I am sure you will appreciate that to do all the relevant testing for a complete rewire there is a considerable amount of time involved and it has been estimated that the Local Aouthority would have to charge in the region of up to £200 to cover the testing alone, which is partly why, when we arent statutorily required to do so, we dont automatically offer this facility.

have sent an email back with a link to circular 8/2004, and also said that as far as im concerned he is violating part P and the email will be forwarded to the appropriate person. i await his response.
 
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If you really want to upset him you might also like to point out that they had 2 years and 3 months between the publishing of the proposals for Part P, including the use of LABC to certify work done by unregistered persons, and the regulations coming into force in which to get ready for their new responsibilities......
 
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I'm watching this thread closely, I might need to do some notifiable work soon... of course I could do it last year, but that'd be naughty ;)
 
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Most of the work I see going on at the moment is done via time travel ;)
 
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here an update:

reply from previous post:

Andrew,
To keep the work legal in terms of Part P your friend has 2 alternatives.
Firstly he can employ an electrician who is registered under one of the competent persons schemes and Building Control will not be involved other than receiving a notification from his certification body once the contractor has made a return to say that he has completed the work.
The second alternative, which seems to be what you are indicating is that he makes a building regulation application and contracts someone not capable of self certifying (yourself) to do the installation works. Building Control staff will inspect the installation as the works proceed but at the end of the project we will require a copy of a BS7671 certificate or similar to say that the installation has been tested and is satisfactory. If you are not qualified to issue such a certificate then you would have to have the work checked by someone who can. I am sure that because of your training you already know that regardless of the introduction of Part P anyone carrying out electrical works should already give their client a copy of a BS7671 certificate to say the works have been designed, installed and tested and are satisfactory. It was because such certificates were not automatically being given to clients by some contractors that Part P was introduced to safeguard customers
The introduction of Part p was intended by the government to avoid electrical works being carried out by unqualified people and unfortunately from what you have said, my interpretation would be that until you have completed your apprenticeship and passed certain exams/tests you fall within this category and my advice would have to be not to become involved in works for "friends" where you cannot operate as a "true" contractor and give guarantees etc.
Your friend should also appreciate that with the requirements of the home sellers packs from 2007 should he ever want to sell his property he/she will be required to produce copies of such documents as copies of BS7671 certificates for prospective purchasers to prove that any alterations/ electrical works have been carried out appropriately.
Consequently and unfortunately for you my advice would be not to become involved as it would appear that you would not be able to perform all the functions to "keep the work legal"
If you have any further queries please give me a call on [number removed] as its always easier to discuss. You may also want to give my contact details to your friend so that I can explain to them the implications.
regards

what i said, to the above:

i have not spoken to you about this before, since most of my work is in a
different area.

because of what you are saying, we have decided that i will not do the work,
and instead my friend will do all the work. still legal tho. so, you will
probably hear from him sometime soon. that way, he does not know how to test
and doesnt have any test equipment which means you will have to come and do
the testing, which is layed on in the regulations and is made clear in ODPM
Circular 8/2004
(http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_br
eg_037024.hcsp). and the testing has to be carried ou by either yourself, or
someone appointed by you, and you cannot charge more for someone else to do
it. and i am well aware of how long it can take to do tests, since i do
actually do them myself

so overall this pointless money makin schemes have cause this re-wire to be
done by someone with very little knowledge of electrics.

and one last thing, as far as im concerned you are in violation of Part P by
requesting me to do the tests or pay you even more to do the work, and
because of this i will be forewarding this email to the appropriate people.


the reply:

Andrew
Firstly as you say we have not corresponded before you have my apologies for that, but I have had similar dialoge with someone else called Andrew from a similar background, over a similar matter and from a very similar email address.
To clarify the situation exactly requires me to quote from Part P which you seem to have some knowledge of.
Requirement P1 requires" reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installation in order to protect persons from injury" This clearly places the responsibility on the person carrying out the work to ensure that the inspection and testing of the electrical installation is carried out.
One way of satisfying the requirements of this regulation is by following the guidance in Approved document P, though you should note that the contents of approved document P are not in themselves regulations.In the general guidance to approved document P clause 0.2 states that one way of meeting the requirements would be to follow BS7671 or eqivalent which includes issuing an installation certificate to the person ordering the work. It does not say that the Local Authority has to do the test.
clauses 1.6 & 1.7 also refer to similar.
We would far prefer the works to be carried out by an experienced electrican as opposed to a DIY but at the end of the day the bottom line is that the system will need to be tested and certified.
Nothing I have said is in contravention of Part p and indeed our approach is totally in accordance with the views of Local Authority Building Control Nationally.
Your own approach seems far more about exploiting the interpretation of the legislation rather than ensuring the safety of the installation at your friends house which is of paramount importance. You appear to be mis representing what I have said about the levels of fees we charge as I have not said that we would charge you "more to do the work" I was trying to relate to you the time and cost this could cost the authority if your friend wasnt to commission his own testing.
Again I am more than willing to discuss the matter further, including Part p and circular 8/2004 clause by clause if you so wish and would welcome a telephone call so that we can resolve this issue.
regards
[name removed]
 
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Spark123 said:
Andy, you've left his telephone number in again :LOL:
just makin sure you were reading it...

anyway, have sent another email back, with the help of B-A-S's post
 

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