Re: An official petition to No 10 to review part P..

[securespark]

I shall not hijack the above thread, tempting though it is...

I shall be very careful not to identify any person or organisation, but the following is a perfect example of why Part P and other "regulations" were introduced. The fact that the persons responsible slipped through every net is incredible, but now the customer is educated, they can do something about this.


I visited a property recently. The job was to change a CU & upgrade the MEB's.

This was because the customer had had a leak in the bathroom & the builders had refitted the room, but when it came to the shower, they said they couldn't replace it because "there was no RCD".

While we were there, the customer told us her story. After the flood, the customer contacted their BS. They in turn contacted their insurance company, who in turn contacted their builders who contracted someone else to do repairs.

The guy who came to wire up replacement kitchen lighting, bathroom lighting & the shower admitted he had left school at 12, not been to college for any kind of training, was not electrically trained but said "I know what I'm doing because I've watched the others do it on building sites".

He then proceeded to cut one SELV fitting out of a kit of 5 in the kitchen because "I know how to do four, but haven't done 5 before".

Surprisingly, he left no paperwork.

As for the bathroom, here's the list of items the customer is complaining about:

Shower unit dropped into the bath: "I'll get a company to repair that for you!"

Shower switch enclosed by coving & underrated for new shower.

No supp bonding.

Lighting not suited to zone.

Coving stuck over tiling.

Original pipe for shower placed so that it fouls the site of a bath screen.

Replacement pipe fed from loft through afore-mentioned coving: "I can't feed it down inside the stud wall, you're not allowed to any more."

Radiator sited so close to bath that you cannot get bath panel off. When radiator is re-sited & bath panel removed, the under-bath void is jam-packed with debris.

Waste for bath & basin fed into stack. Pipe goes effectively uphill, ie rises instead of falls, despite being propped up with a piece of waste plasterboard. Waste water from bath rises up into the basin.

Toilet originally fixed so close to basin that when sitting on the pan, your arm would be right up against it.

Resited toilet not refixed to wall - the whole thing swivels around alarmingly.

Bath fitted such that when full of human & water, there is a 2" gap between bathtop & tiles.


There was more, but this is all I can remember. Now, I'm not involved with this fiasco at all, but it makes my blood boil!

How can this kind of thing happen in 2007?

You would think the insurance company would keep a tight reign on their builders, likewise the BS on the IC.

An ombudsman is getting involved now, but he is insisting the builders are given a chance to put their mess right - would you let them?

I wouldn't!

 

[DESL]

You would think the insurance company would keep a tight reign on their builders, likewise the BS on the IC.

SS The only rein they are interested is keeping down costs and increasing profits.

Insurance Co goes for cheapest quote to get work done.

Building Soc isn't really interested unless it has a marked effect on house value w.r.t mortgage owed.

I've been on a refurb job today doing CU etc, whilst there some remedial rising damp work was being done. The 'professional builders' put their kango through a gas feed to cooker.
Whilst clearing some screed around gas pipe for repair they hit the water main.

Customer is almost a basket case.

I suppose if the gas pipe had ignited the water would have put it out!!!

 

[securespark]

The only rein they are interested is keeping down costs and increasing profits.

You can increase profits by getting a good name as a reputable insurance company.

Customers (like this one) will leave in droves if they receive appalling service.

 

[Softus]

Name and shame?

 

[securespark]

I can't, but maybe the customer will.

 

[stevesey]

...I shall be very careful not to identify any person or organisation, but the following is a perfect example of why Part P and other "regulations" were introduced...

Has actually part P had any impact on this sort of workman??

I fear the reality is that whislt it may have raised awareness and improved quality in those already looking to do a good job - it has had no impact on those operating outside the regulations.

As with any change of law/regulation (and I am being general here - not specific to part P) it's not the change that is needed, but better inforcement of the current law/regulation.

 

[Softus]

I think it's all too tempting to review changes in the law as being either successful or not. It's a grey world, and things are rarely that black and white.

In the case of Part P, it's clear (IMHO) from the type and content of posts on this forum that the understanding of Part P is reaching further and wider.

The more people who become motivated to use registered electricians, the fewer customers will be left over to engage those with a 12 year old's understanding of the trade.

 

[DESL]

From a personal point of view Part P is beginning to filter through to the housing industry and in a lesser extent to the public.
Solicitors and surveyors are now asking about electrical work carried out after Jan 2005 and requesting evidence of BC notification as part of the conveyancing process.

The main confusion for non trades folk is the fact that there several trade bodies for electricians and only one for Gas engineers.

The control of gas engineers is fairly well known and most customers won't take a chance on gas.
But as there is no tangible danger with electrics (as far as joe public is concerned) then there will always be a cash in hand non traceable element until non professional electrical work is banned.

 

[Softus]

The control of gas engineers is fairly well known and most customers won't take a chance on gas.

You're kidding aren't you? Customers are the worst culprits wrt to gas! They're forever asking me to do gas work, and I've never even been an RGI.

 

[dingbat]

Posters making comments to the effect that 'Part P isn't working' are missing the point. It is a general principle that laws do little to prevent criminals; they simply curtail the freedoms of the law-abiding. The fact that it is illegal to use a hand-held mobile phone while driving does not prevent many people from doing it. In the same way, those who flout building regulations by intent or ignorance will continue to do so. But at least now there's a legal requirement, which can be enforced and customers ( and drivers) are becoming more aware all the time. And there is a standard to which more and more electrical work will conform... even the cowboys will start to see better examples to copy.

As for the building trade in general, whilst there are some real craftsmen out there, the general market is awash with unskilled chancers. To add my little story to Simon's original thread, here's what we found on second fix of a job yesterday:

Tails for oven and hob (separate circuits) completely entombed behind fixed and caulked kitchen.
Socket tiled over - completely hidden.
A second socket tiled so that it was impossible to fit a socket into the opening because the tiler just couldn't be bothered to work level.
The same problem with a fan position - the (jagged) hole in the tiles overlapping the duct by an inch.
Lightswitch half covered by kitchen wall cabinet that could easily have been two inches to the right. Presumably it was where it was because they'd already fixed the base unit and coudn't be bothered to move it... leave the problem to somebody else.
Cable cut too short to terminate correctly, for no apparant reason.
Bonding cable removed entirely and route through cellar floor boarded over from below and 'kitchened' from above.
Layout of cellar room changed and socket position moved, then boarded over... did we have fun finding where that one had gone to!
Socket position now behind a radiator that was never meant to be there.

This sort of thing is completely normal and entirely down to ignorance and indifference to the work of other trades. I would say most 'builders' have a scant knowledge of the regulations (or where to look them up!) and certainly have no regard for the strictures that others have to work to.

 

[DESL]

Socket position now behind a radiator

Funny you should say that I was doing a visual inspection for a house buyer and found the same amongst other things.

The vendor commented on what a silly place to put a socket behind a radiator.

 

[dingbat]

It's happened to me three times in the last twelve months.

And every single time I have queried the request for a socket in what seemed to me to be the obvious position for a radiator. In every case the client insisted that no, there would not be a radiator there!

My 'favourite' client did the same with the underfloor heating he insisted he didn't want in the bathroom. On one occasion I turned up to find the plumber installing pipework for a bathroom radiator, "just in case he changes his bl00dy mind again!"

 

[WabbitPoo]

The onus is still on the householder to ensure conformance to regs, either by getting BC involved or by ensuring the contractor can and does sign off legally on it. Part P does not place any pressure directly on the electrical contractor. That is, its not illegal to install something badly. That's how I understand the situation, anyway.

 

[securespark]

Socket position now behind a radiator

Funny you should say that I was doing a visual inspection for a house buyer and found the same amongst other things.

The vendor commented on what a silly place to put a socket behind a radiator.

It must have taken the spark ages to demount the rad, fix it and then remount the rad...

 

[securespark]

...I shall be very careful not to identify any person or organisation, but the following is a perfect example of why Part P and other "regulations" were introduced...

Has actually part P had any impact on this sort of workman??

I suppose my point is this: How can reputable companies (like BS's, IS's etc) be blind to the fact that their contractors are flouting laws?

And if they do know, that is even more scandalous.