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Solid Wooden Flooring Installation

Discussion in 'Floors, Stairs and Lofts' started by tomoliver87, 27 Dec 2010.

  1. tomoliver87

    tomoliver87

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    Anyone in the know,

    I'm fitting a Solid Oak floor in my house over the next week whilst its xmas. I've read opinions and instructions online now for months and watched videos about the best methods to install a floor. All I've really concluded is that there are lots of methods and people that swear by them all.

    As a Mechanical Engineer I feel i've got an advanced grasp on the mechanics and physics at work on a floor, and IMO it seems floating a floor has far more benefit in terms of thermal insulation, than for example adhering direct to the sub floor.

    I've removed the old lino tiles that were on the floor and filled deep depressions in the remaining concrete sub floor using a levelling compound. I'm going to be using a relatively common 3mm 'foam type' underlay with built in DPM. My concrete subfloor has a DPM though I'm protecting my floor from any remaining moisture in the 'dried' levelling compound, people rarely moan a house is too well insulated. Though I've used levelling compound I wouldnt say my sub floor is utterly perfect, and I estimate there to be <1mm imperfections in places.

    I expect the Underlay to largely compensate for this as they are so small. I've had the wooden flooring airing in the respective rooms for the last 7 days to acclimatise.

    In case it matters i'm using 90mm x 18mm x 1200/300mm planks. Fitting 28m^2 throughout 2 rooms with a split between.

    Because of mentioned <1mm imperfections, i've contemplated using an off the shelf DPM, then the fibreboard underlay available from common DIY stores instead, due to its increased thickness and absorbtion of imperfections. Though i've a suspicion i'm just overthinking the possibilities now.

    To do this i'd have to attempt to return the underlay I have, might get a bit interesting.

    I'm going to use a wood flooring adhesive from wickes to glue the tongue/grooves whilst installing.

    This is my first attempt at a Real wood floor and i'd rather not cock it up, so any preparatory advice, mainly opinion on the underlay would be much appreciated.

    Kind Regards,

    Tom
     
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  3. mattysupra

    mattysupra

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    yep i have got some advice that you may not want to hear!

    Solids should not be floated but only fully adhered to concrete subfloors.

    You should be applying a liquid DPM to the surface as the british standards of 75%rh and below is to high.
     
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  4. tomoliver87

    tomoliver87

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    I dont mind as long as you explain why... why should I be laying a liquid dpm? That's not any better than just laying an underlay with dpm, ones a liquid which dries, and one is a piece of plastic... both the same as far as I'm concerned....

    Next... the not floated issue. Why exactly do you say this? A laminate or engineered floor can be floated, which are either HDF or something like pine predominantly in composition, which technically, except the HDF being homogeneous, are less stable than oak. I've floated and have friends and relatives who have floated floors, with no issues, why should this affect my floor?

    It seems to me your saying I have to lay a liquid dpm... but what I'm interpreting is I should lay one of those only if I adhere to the subfloor. Which until I read your future response I'm a bit unconvinced of yet.

    Sorry if it sounds like I'm poking holes but I'm just trying to understand the facts, to back up reasoning, thanks for the reply so far, much appreciated

    Tom
     
  5. mattysupra

    mattysupra

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    hi,

    To start with floating solid wood floors in the u.k is not a recommended method used. We see a lot of failed solids due to floating. What you need to remember is that the solid wood floor is going to expand and contract dependent on the moister the wood takes on. This is normally around 1.5-2mm per meter wide. When glued by tongue and groove you put a hell of alot of stress on the tongue and groove. Either you will get away with it or you wont.

    However i know that other countries do use this method without issues. Also there are others taht use this method without issues in the u.k, but i cant recommened this method personally for certain reasons. Maybe this is down to better climate control etc in there houses? i dont know to be honest as its not something i have had to research as its not a british standard.


    You can float a solid on a elastilon underlay as this allows the wood to move along its tongue + grooves still but is expensive and personally i think a fixed floor is alot better.


    So the recommended system in the u.k for a solid is glue down or nail down with cleats.

    As you have a concrete subfloor you would be gluing by full adhestion.


    Now to British standards a concrete subfloor needs a working DPM and it needs to read below 75% Rh (relative humidity) to take ANY floorcovering. In the case of a wooden floor it needs to be lower than 65% max.

    Its hard to get a concrete slad below this or more so to maintain below this so a liquid dpm is applied to stop moister escaping and causing you woood to cup/crown.

    If there is more moister below the wood to the top of the wood then it will cup/crown etc.


    just to clear something up, if you are installing by gluing to the subfloor you wont be using a underlay. The glue acts as thermal barrier and also deadens the sound. Your floor will be alot quieter than floating.



    Does that make more sence for you?
     
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  7. tomoliver87

    tomoliver87

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    ok thanks for that, now we're cooking with gas.

    I'd rather guarantee my floor will last 20 years rather than 20 weeks with a bit of preparation here.

    I understand your stance, and I must admit, browsing this forum, the general concensus seems to be that since i've so many short pieces and narrow 90mm boards, I shouldn't float it. This I tend to agree with now.

    So i'll take the Underlay back.

    My initial thought is to get 6 tins of the £9.99 wickes liquid DPM to cover my whole floor, any other suggestions?

    Which adhesive would you recommend for the flooring?

    I've seen the Rewmar MS polymer used in videos?

    Call me an innovator, but does such a product as an adhesive which acts as a DPM (since im going to be coating the entire floor with both anyway) exist?

    Thanks for the help!

    Tom
     
  8. mattysupra

    mattysupra

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    dont bother with wickes!


    Contact FBALL http://www.f-ball.co.uk/product_detail.asp?product=F75&catID=damp for your liquid dpm.

    give them a phone and they will tell you exactly what you need and who can supply you.

    Rewmar adhesive is very good so yes a option for you also.

    And yes there is a all in one product you could use. Im trying remember who makes it. I think its SIKA. I can check for you tomorrow. I have never used this product myself so cant give feedback on how good it is.
     
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  9. tall_tone

    tall_tone

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    MS Polymers (Part of the Silane group of adhesives) have moisture proofing properties but cannot be used as DPM's. You would need to use a resin based DPM first, like he one quoted by Mattysupra.
    Silane's cannot be used on top of bitumen based products so don't use a wickes DPM and a Silane.

    Not sure about an "All in one" DPM and adhesive. Hot dip bitumen used to do this, but only really on block floors and other mosaics.

    Sika make a silane called AT80
    http://ukconstr01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1941

    The closest to an all in one system would be Bona who make a silane DPM and a Silane adhesive
    http://www.bona.com/en-gb/United-Kingdom/TopMenu/BonaSystem1/Fastening/Silane-based-adhesives/
    The R580 is a DPM and the R850 is an adhesive

    Hope this helps a bit
    TT
     
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  10. tomoliver87

    tomoliver87

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    ok guys,

    Thanks for the replies, I certainly understand the reasoning better now, and why I cant use a wickes DPM.

    Like most of the world, im 23 and not made of money, so im comparing. the Rewmar MS Polymer seems to be by far the cheapest adhesive ive come across, for 27m^2 its going to be approx £140.

    The DPM however seems to be going to cost me a further £150-200+ odd based on coverage I've noted.

    I can understand the cost of the adhesive, but is there a more effective way to do the DPM? seems madness to spend £200+ on what can be done using a £10 plastic sheet! (or probably a £10 pot of PVA)

    The elastilon underlay method will work out at approx £160 with DPM, (I dont need a Liquid in that instance). But I wouldnt feel as confident if my flooring wasnt physically glued down.

    I guess the question is anyone know a cheap DPM that will work with the Rewmar adhesive and anyone used the elastilon adhesive underlay?

    Cheers Guys.

    Tom :confused:
     
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