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But as incompetant as some people seem.. is it not better to help them carry out the work safely?
These are both from the same topic where the OP was planning to change a CU, and was asking some pretty basic questions:

Also.. dont mean to critiscise and put a boot in it.

But, because you are asking those questions on here on what to do.. are you competant in doing the work?

this isnt just extending a circuit, changing a fitting or fixture.. maybe adding an extra circuit which you know is sound.
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dont mean to sound blunt.. just looking out for you, because if this goes wrong due to a lack of knowledge.. being electrics it will go seriously wrong.. especially when you have no way to isolate the incoming supply from the meter.
further highlighting the fact this person may not even be competant enough to be attempting this job.

:confused:

yes, I pointed out that.. but I didnt get abusive towards them, was merely looking out for their own interests.. and theres nothing wrong with pointing out to somebody that they may not be competent depending on the situation.. because your just informing them of the risk..and the way I said "dont mean to" it was almost apoligetic for having to say it in the first place.. and I would of given them advice to help them.. just not really in a position to be advising other people on electrics when im not qualified myself... and I dont want to chance give advice.. then have all of you tell me how im wrong and get further abuse thrown at me.

but, people on here seem to go 1 step further than just politely telling somebody they may not be competant by throwing a tonne of abuse at them.. and considering you as qualified electricians are in a position to provide sound advice... then your advice would be the difference between somebody doing a job safely.. or at least safer and having an acident or ending up with a dangerous installation.

But instead you just all seem to argue and instead of maybe saying maybe.. do you realise what you have done is dangerous? and for the following reasons.. then go onto politely telling them how they can put it right and how it should be done.

instead.. what happens is... "you shouldnt be doing electrics at all.. you clearly dont know what your doing at all.. get an electrician in, your incompetant, we arent helping you" its just the general attitude.. and do you really think a comment like that is going to make somebody get an electrician in?.. they will probably wait till something goes wrong before getting somebody in if they are that bent on doing the job...and to be honest, from the recieving end.. being in that position myself although im sure you have the best interests at heart.. its not nice.. because you feel like your being intimidated.
 
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every time I post on here, I get abuse shouted at me,
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now im sure, this post will get abuse thrown at it.. as per usual...
then have all of you tell me how im wrong and get further abuse thrown at me.
I challenge you to provide proof of that. Not necessarily "every time" - I'm not going to take that literally, but can you show any examples of abuse being shouted, or thrown at you?






even if you feel somebody is incompetant, you can advise them to get an electrician and give reasons, tell them about part p...
so in some respects electricians have more of a responsibility to ensure if people are hellbent on doing something without being competant they are properly advised and doing it at least better than they would of done without the advice.. because part p goes in 1 ear and out the other...
Make your mind up.


and it boils down to, would you rather an incompetant person done an installation slightly correct and in a slightly safer manner based on professional advice? or would you rather they tackled the job on their own.. burn their house down or kill themselves and add yet more red tape to the system and paperwork.
I'd rather they took the advice to get someone competent to do the job.


But instead you just all seem to argue and instead of maybe saying maybe.. do you realise what you have done is dangerous? and for the following reasons.. then go onto politely telling them how they can put it right and how it should be done.

instead.. what happens is... "you shouldnt be doing electrics at all.. you clearly dont know what your doing at all.. get an electrician in, your incompetant, we arent helping you" its just the general attitude.. and do you really think a comment like that is going to make somebody get an electrician in?.. they will probably wait till something goes wrong before getting somebody in if they are that bent on doing the job...and to be honest, from the recieving end.. being in that position myself although im sure you have the best interests at heart.. its not nice.. because you feel like your being intimidated.
OK - I can't speak for others, but here are a few statements regarding my position.

1) The word "incompetent" is not an insult or a term of abuse. It simply means that the person has no, or insufficient, competence. I am incompetent at a great many things - for example there are several hundred languages in which I am incompetent. I would not regard it as abuse or an insult if someone wrote that I was incompetent at speaking Tibetan.

2) The word "ignorant" is not an insult or a term of abuse. It simply means that the person has no, or insufficient, knowledge. I am ignorant of a great many things - surgery for example. I would not regard it as abuse or an insult if someone wrote that I was ignorant of the principles of neurosurgery.

3) I firmly believe that nobody should carry out electrical work unless they actually understand the whys and whats of what they are doing. Just following instructions without knowing what you're doing is not, IMO, acceptable. Even something as simple as wiring a 2-way light switch - nobody should do it just by copying a diagram showing which colours go where, they should know what a 2-way switch does inside, and they should be able to look at the wiring diagram and see exactly what the various current paths are and how it works.

We get people here who have such a complete lack of any understanding of things that they actually think a light switch will have live and neutral in COM & L1. That shows that they have no idea what a simple switch does, no idea what live & neutral are, no idea what a circuit is, no idea about current flow and so on.

People like that should not be told to "put the red in COM and the black in L1", they should be told to go away and either learn how it all works or go away and get an electrician.

You say the responsible thing to do is to tell people what to do otherwise they'll do it anyway and be more likely to screw up. The latter is only an assumption - people giving advice here cannot do anything except assume that their advice will be heeded.

The responsible thing to do is not to give any encouragement to people who have not the first idea how anything they are fiddling with works, at any level.

Imagine the following. (It's not likely, I know, but hopefully the starkness of it will make it clear why I take the position I do)

Someone who clearly doesn't have a clue asks about doing a job where their incompetence and ignorance means that they should not even think of attempting it.

They can be given step-by-step "electrics by numbers" instructions or they can be told to skill up or get someone who knows what they are doing.

In either case, they go ahead and do the work, screw up, and someone dies.

Which would make you feel more, or less, comfortable at an inquest:

A

"Did you consider that Mr. OP was competent enough to do this work?"
"No."
"So what advice did you give him?"
"I told him how to do it."
"And did he take your advice?"
"Yes."
"So he acted on your advice, and <the victim> was electrocuted by his unsafe work."


B

"Did you consider that Mr. OP was competent enough to do this work?"
"No."
"So what advice did you give him?"
"I told him to get a competent electrician to carry out the work."
"And did he take your advice?"
"No."
"So he ignored your advice, and <the victim> was electrocuted by his unsafe work."
 

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