Two PIR wall switches for a single lightbulb?

[GabrielKnight]

Since we moved into our flat, the ceiling light in the communal entrance hall of the building has been controlled by an ugly push button timer switch at the bottom of the stairs and a standard on/off switch at the top of the stairs.

The timer switch always works regardless of the position of the on/off switch, but when the on/off switch is 'on' it overrides the timer switch, keeping the light on forever even if the timer has timed out.

Although I can see some reasons for needing the lights on all the time (when decorating etc), we would prefer a simpler system that relies entirely on timers, so that lights can't be accidently left on all the time by new tenants etc.

I like the idea of replacing both the push button switch and the on/off switch with a couple of these PIR wall switches with timers:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp;jsessionid=J5UH1FHK34BJICSTHZOCFFQ?id=66514&ts=40874
I want the light to switch and stay on for 3 minutes no matter whether a sensor is passed at the TOP of the stairs, OR the BOTTOM, OR BOTH PIRs within a few seconds of each other.

If I wire the PIR switches in the same way as the current switches, can this work, or do I need to wire them in a different way? When both the timers are triggered by someone walking past both sensors within a few seconds, will the lights stay on, or will they cancel each other out and switch off again when the second trigger is activated?

 

[breezer]

inthoery your idea will work (the product does not say it reqquires a neutral) but my question would be what happens when some one puts it into the manual position Ithey will)

why not change the ordainairy switch to a time delay as the other one already is?

oh and are you the landlord / insured to do this?

 

[GabrielKnight]

oh and are you the landlord / insured to do this?

It's a share of freehold and all necessary parties have agreed to the work being done.

why not change the ordainairy switch to a time delay as the other one already is?

Because both the current switches are old and nasty and need replacing anyway. For just £8 a switch, we would prefer the cool factor of lights switching themselves on as they are walked past. Pushing a big plastic button is sooooo 1982.

my question would be what happens when some one puts it into the manual position I they will

Simple. I would break their arm.

inthoery your idea will work (the product does not say it reqquires a neutral)

Hmmm. But would it actually work? I really don't want to get into this without lots of confirmation from lots of experts! More comments please if you have experience in wiring two switches in series / parrallel / whatever it isI'm trying to do!

 

[sm1thson]

oh and are you the landlord / insured to do this?

It's a share of freehold and all necessary parties have agreed to the work being done.

Part P Notifiable Work
Communal Areas of Flats (e.g Entrance Hall): Extensions and modifications to circuits-Yes, New Circuits- yes

http://www.napit.org.uk/notifiable_work.php
Im not adverse to a bit of bending the part P rules, but when the work is for/effects someone else then you really need to stop and think! just as long as you are fully aware that this work must be notified to you local building control etc (+fee payed) then carry on I shall say no more.

i do like the look of that switch, but i wouldnt be surprised if it does need a neutral (which isnt usually in a a switch box) i wouldnt trust the fact that it doesnt say it doesnt. -is there a screwfix near you so you can go and check it out? -or same product from another shop?

 

[GabrielKnight]

The three of us paid close to a million between us for this house and are old enough to make decisions for ourselves. If some fat, washed out council bureaucrat wants us to write to and pay to change a couple of light switches in our own property, then he can take his part P and shove it up his portfolio.

Thanks for derailing my thread. It took ages to prepare my first post and I really needed a helpful answer.

 

[Steve]

The three of us paid close to a million between us for this house and are old enough to make decisions for ourselves. If some fat, washed out council bureaucrat wants us to write to and pay to change a couple of light switches in our own property, then he can take his part P and shove it up his portfolio.

Thanks for derailing my thread. It took ages to prepare my first post and I really needed a helpful answer.

sorry, but this is no attitude to have. You could be breaking the law to do this work without notifying the local council. You paid 333,000 for the flat - so surely you've got a bit left over to pay an electrician or notify the local council.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/Products/size_3/MK5650.JPG
This would be a good solution for your hallway, however it would involve re-wiring the switches so they are all 1-way spring switches and parallel to each other. You mount this little gadget in the cellar / utility room in a suitable enclosure, set the delay, and leave it! Whenever someone presses one of the spring switches, this device switches the lights on and then turns them back off after the delay. And the best thing is the override is hidden (well, not convenient anyway)

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK5650.html to buy it.

 

[ebee]

Does not the fact that you are asking this question at all tell you anything my friend?

A PIR switch has three live terminals, phase in, phase out & Nuetral.
Most makes allow two to be paralleled without detriment but check with the manufacturer first.

You`d need to be able to isolate the supply locally for changing faulty units etc too.

I advise you to get a competent person to do this for you.
If you can`t afford it then there is no need to be ashamed about that just leave it as it is until you can afford it.

Hope this helps

 

[GabrielKnight]

Maybe I'm wrong...but I don't think so. It seems like most of the people on the electrics forum are here not to provide help, but to feel superior to people that have got more to do with life than fiddle around with wires and switches every day. In fact, nobody has been able to provide practical help. Why would I want a timed fusebox switch and replace my wall switches when the spring button already does that job? And who seriously is going to contact the council or pay £100s to a sparky to replace a couple of light-switches. That may be what your profession would like, but it ain't gonna happen for the vast majority of people.

If any of the 80+ readers (apart from maybe ebee) had actualy read and seriously pondered the simple, original question, they would have realised that as I don't want the 2nd switch to override the 1st one, the system I am trying to set up is not a true 2-way system, but a simple parallel circuit that will work fine with 1-way switches. Thanks for the patronising, moneygrabbing advice suggesting that I'm incompetent and need professionals like you, but I got some real, quality advice elsewhere.

 

[Steve]

Maybe I'm wrong...but I don't think so. It seems like most of the people on the electrics forum are here not to provide help, but to feel superior to people that have got more to do with life than fiddle around with wires and switches every day. In fact, nobody has been able to provide practical help. Why would I want a timed fusebox switch and replace my wall switches when the spring button already does that job? And who seriously is going to contact the council or pay £100s to a sparky to replace a couple of light-switches. That may be what your profession would like, but it ain't gonna happen for the vast majority of people.

If any of the 80+ readers (apart from maybe ebee) had actualy read and seriously pondered the simple, original question, they would have realised that as I don't want the 2nd switch to override the 1st one, the system I am trying to set up is not a true 2-way system, but a simple parallel circuit that will work fine with 1-way switches. Thanks for the patronising, moneygrabbing advice suggesting that I'm incompetent and need professionals like you, but I got some real, quality advice elsewhere.

I gave you a practical solution to your problem. Did you actually read my post? Thought not.

The other way is to wire the 2 switches in parallel and replace both switches with pneumatics.

That sensor has an accessible override, which you know someone will flick and make the lights stay on until someone finds it.

We have to make you aware of the legal stuff, to cover our own backs. I am not an electrician, and have no affiliation with the electrical contracting industry, but I give advice on here, as I know a lot about electrics. So my post was not "moneygrabbing". When someone comes along and rubbishes what we say and takes absolutely no notice of what we have written, do you think it makes us feel good? Do you think we enjoy it when this happens? The building inspectors are usually quite nice, helpful people - its when they meet people like you, who think they know it all, that they turn nasty.

You asked for advice on a DIY forum, and got it. Lets hope that fat washed out bureaucrat from the council doesn't come visiting with his portfolio eh?

It seems like most of the people on the electrics forum are here not to provide help, but to feel superior to people that have got more to do with life than fiddle around with wires and switches every day

yeah . . . you never thought, perhaps they do this for a living? Like you fiddle around with something every day too, whatever your profession involves.

Why would I want a timed fusebox switch and replace my wall switches when the spring button already does that job?

You said you wanted rid of the spring button.

 

[GabrielKnight]

OK. Thanks. I think I've got it sussed now, but will come back if I need any more help. If anyone overrides the sensors to the permanently on position, its no real biggy. I'm here most days and as I have said will break the arm of the offender. As the debate has gone on, I realise I just wanted to know for sure that 2x 1 way PIR switches can be used in a parallel lighting circuit, and they confirmed that it can on the Screwfix forums.

 

[Steve]

the Screwfix forums.

sorry.

 

[breezer]

The three of us paid close to a million between us for this house ] so?

Thanks for derailing my thread. It took ages to prepare my first post and I really needed a helpful answer.

The problem with people like yourself is that you never give all the relevent information in the first place and expect a reply that solves your problem, no one on this forum is trying to be better than anyone else, we can all only go by what anyone posts

 

[GabrielKnight]

Please let me know which relevant information I didn't include. I would love to know.

I thought I made it totally clear in the first post that:

<I want the light to switch and stay on for 3 minutes no matter whether a sensor is passed at the TOP of the stairs, OR the BOTTOM, OR BOTH PIRs within a few seconds of each other.>

Which ever way you look at it, this is a parallel circuit, similar to the one I already have, n'est pas?

It would have saved me hours of searching if you had recognised this and offered some real help of how to easily swap switches in a few minutes. Instead you pompously recited a bureaucratic technicality presumedly thought up in some god-forsaken office in Brussels by a lard-faced pen-pushing pleb.

 

[securespark]

I hope you don't see me as a lard-faced pen-pushing pleb.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

whinge whinge whinge

snivel snivel snivel

Ooh I'm so rich and important that the law of the land doesn't apply to me.

**** off.