UKPN reducing fuse from 100A to 30A

[lt8480]

We live if a property converted to 3 flats (~20 years ago). There is a single phase looped supply with 3 fuses 100A each (one for each flat).

UKPN are sending someone out but from phone conversations they expect (looking at a photo) they will need to be downgraded to 30A each or at best 60/30/30A. On the call they noted the main incoming appeared to be a Paper Insulated Lead Covered supply, from records a 60s install.

They suggested we should really have a 3 phase supply, and that we would have to pay for it. They said they wouldn't have installed it like that so it's not their cost to sort. This seems odd as the main fuse holder install is dated 2001 and all 3 fuses/holders look identical, and all wiring appears same age. If they/their predecessor didn't do it I'm not sure who did!?

30A seems ridiclous as we alone have two 20A ovens - not sure how a 30A would take that amongst other appliances? Surely it's going to blow every day?

When I queried this they said it might and just said that's not their problem, and they would likely replace it the first couple of times, and then inform us they won't carry out any further replacements as the supply needs upgrading.

Can they really just downgrade our fuses and then ask us to pay for a new 3 phase supply to serve the flats.

They also (IMO wrongly) installed the backing board in 2001 on a unsecure surface so the whole thing is loose on the wall. Even trying to get them to sort this they are suggesting is a cost to us as they will need to deenergise the supply to remove and remount.

Any thoughts or pointers to regulation on this woud be much appreciated.

 

[JohnW2]

We live if a property converted to 3 flats (~20 years ago). There is a single phase looped supply with 3 fuses 100A each (one for each flat). .... UKPN are sending someone out but from phone conversations they expect (looking at a photo) they will need to be downgraded to 30A each or at best 60/30/30A. ... They suggested we should really have a 3 phase supply, and that we would have to pay for it

I would think that this is quite a difficult one. At the time the property was converted into 3 flats, someone shoul really have realised that a 100A supply was inadequate for three dwellings, so the supplies should have been upgraded then.

Whether the upgrading is to 3-phase or a meatier single-phase (or separate single phase supplies) id presumably up to the DNO.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

So you are saying you have three DNO fuses and three meters which were not installed by the DNO?

So they are saying you or your predecessor have removed the DNO seals and replaced the orignal fuses with 100 amp ones?

If that is the case then it is clearly serious, the first question must be are the fuses sealed, if so how do you know what size they are? And if not, who removed the seals.

This house has a 60 amp DNO fuse, three storey, two electric showers, two cookers, and it has never ruptured since I have been here. They may now upgrade to 100 amp if asked, but originally the Wylex fuse box had a 60 amp isolator, so it would have been irresponsible to have fitted a 100 amp fuse even when supplying a consumer unit and a fuse box.

There is no seal on my DNO fuse, and had two billing agents and meter is physically read, not a smart one, so it seems DNO or meter readers are not worried about no seals, been like that since I bought the house. So it is possible for the fuse not to be sealed, but it seems something missing in the tale.

I have seen multi meters fed from one fuse, which would be what I would have expected to see with a house converted to flats, but that means if some one does something silly, all three loose power, so not ideal.

Some one would have completed a request for 3 meters, and one would have expected supply size would have been sorted then, so what are you not telling us?

 

[lt8480]

By the sounds of what they said he imagined they would simply drop us all down to 30A or 60/30/30A. Considering its been there 22 years can they really just suddenly drop our fuses by so much?

I'd have no preference to a 3 phase or bigger single supply. But really feels unjust they want to charge us for doing so.

Yes there are 3 DNO fuses (all look identical), and they first/main fuse on the incoming head has a punched platic card that identifies it was installed in Feb-2001. The date the property was split on the land registry/lease is Jan-2001 so the card of the fuses install and this correlate.

UKPN/DNO suggested they wouldn't have installed the fuses like this... but as they are all identical in appearance and considering the date stamp seems like work all done by the same person, and not sure how anyone but the DNO would have done this.

The fuses state 100A on the case - but UKPN/DNO noted they would have to removed by them to be sure and check. They did note the actual fuses may not actually be 100A in reality.

2 meters are visible adjacent to the fuses, and a 3rd meter I assume somewhere inside the respective flat (the cable from the fuse disappears into the ceiling). I don't know who installed the meters, but assume belong to the supplier now.

There are also 60A fused breaker switches after the two visible meters - so I guess at those two flats shouldn't really blow a 100A fuse on the DNO side anyway.

A slight tagent question - but any idea if the supplier will move a breaker switch whilst moving a meter? I can't find any categoric answer to this. I guess an electrican can do if I can align with the DNO/UKPN pulling the fuses, but feels like maybe one less person to co-ordinate in the mess I'm trying to sort out.

 

[conny]

Are the flat residents also the owners of their flats?
If you are renting from a landlord, then it is their responsibility, not the tenants.

 

[JohnW2]

So you are saying you have three DNO fuses and three meters which were not installed by the DNO?

Although not impossible, that sounds pretty unlikely - far more likely that the DNO did install the 3 x 100A fuses, in which case a lot of the presengt problem would be 'their fault' for doing that in the first place.

However, I fear that probably doesn't alter the present problem. If what I suggest is correct, then, even if they had 'acted sensibly' 20 years ago, they would then have indicated then that additional supply(ies) were needed (at the property-owner's cost) - which is probably the same as the situation now.

Kind Regards, John

 

[lt8480]

2 owner occupied and 1 rented. Fortunately at least the rented has nothing in the cupboard but their supply fuse. We get on okay with the tenants so if they end up need to pull the power sure we can co-ordinate without issue at least on that side.

They seem keen to come out. Maybe I can get more from whoever looks at it.

 

[JohnW2]

To essentially repeat myself, I think that, in practical terms (ignoring the question of 'who pays what') it is clearly true 'what has to be done'.

Both now and 20 years ago, a single 100A supply (which I think is the largest single-phase supply a DNO will ever provide) is/was inadequate for 3 dwellings. It therefor seems to be inevitable that an upgrade of the supply is needed (and was needed 20 years ago) - either to 3-phase, or with at least one, probably two, new additional single-phase ones. I'm sure that's not what the OP wants to hear, but I can't see that it is avoidable.

Kind Regards, John

 

[lt8480]

Yes it sounds like we need a new supply. Thanks all for the input.

I think if they try and throw the cost on us unless its reasonable (it will at least in theory be split 3 ways) then I'll have to see what I can argue about liability, but that's likely for another day.

Curiously UKPN do say if you have a 30A or 60A supply they will upgrade it to 80A or 100A free of charge. Perhaps there's some odd round about route where they'll drop the fuse first, and then when we make the request they'll then say they have to upgrade it for being incapable of fitting a 80/100A fuse.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes it sounds like we need a new supply. Thanks all for the input. I think if they try and throw the cost on us unless its reasonable (it will at least in theory be split 3 ways) then I'll have to see what I can argue about liability, but that's likely for another day.

As I've been trying to imply, I doubt that there is likely to be much in a 'liability' argument. If, as I suspect, it was the DNO who installed the 3 x 100-A fuses 20 years ago, the only thing they will have 'done wrong' is not having told you then that you then needed (and would have to pay for) new supply/supplies - so the only effect of that 'wrong' will have been to delay by 20 years the time when you had to pay for that work (even though it was really 'needed' 20 years ago). However, if the occasion arises, there's nothing to be lost by your 'trying'

Curiously UKPN do say if you have a 30A or 60A supply they will upgrade it to 80A or 100A free of charge.

I think that's probably because they have generally installed cables that can cope with 100A, so, provided there is enough capacity (energy available) in the local network, such an upgrade' is merely the trivial business of changing the fuse.

In fact, I suspect that their cables are good for at least 120A since, although I don't think that 'looped supplies' are installed these days, I think that, in the past, it was not uncommon for a pair of adjacent properties (each with a 60A) fuse to be supplied by one cable. However, existing cables would probably not be considered adequate for 180A (3 x 60A) or 240A (3 x 80A) - in which case the much bigger (and much more expensive) job of 'new cables' rears its head.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Old Salt]

Not sure where you live but UKPN didn't exist until 2014 so they most certainly did not install your supplies. Before that date and depending on where you live it may have been edf energy (2002), their predecessor was London electricity but this all depends on where you are.

They will want you to have a new 3 phase supply to balance the loads. They will take one phase to each of the 3 flats which will balance the load on their supply cable.

If it was originally adapted by the DNO, and you can convince them of that by providing paperwork etc, then they may reconsider. Just because it has the same cut outs does not mean they provided them. Check out ebay and you will see lots of equipment “owned” by suppliers etc but being sold on.

If the cut outs are sealed take photos of the seals showing the number/code on the seal. These will be traceable as they are issued to individuals so will confirm who actually sealed the cut out and hopefully who did the work.

 

[mattylad]

How did this all start?
Why did UKPN say they want to change the fuses in the first place?

 

[lt8480]

The board isn't securely fixed to the wall, so requested they sort this out.

 

[SUNRAY]

I'm wondering if you have a main 100A fuse followed by 3 smaller fuses. Can you send us that photo please?

 

[lt8480]

It's definitely marked with each fuse marked 100A individually