Unvented cylinder in kitchen cupboard

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Im after a 210 litre indirect unvented cylinder that fits - or nearly fits a kitchen tower cupboard. Most cylinders seem to be 550mm diameter and system-fit versions of models like megaflo and santon show that the overall arrangement including pipework/pump etc measures about 700mm deep. Options for reducing this appear to include Ariston Primo at 505mm dia but theyve got a bad write-up on here. Range tribune slimline at 478mm dia is 2m tall so there wouldnt be space above for the expansion vessel. So it looks like Im stuck with a 550mm dia tank....Can anybody recommend which cylinder ends up the smallest (both width and depth) once all the kit has been fitted?
 
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Quite apart from the fitted dimensions you have to consider maintenance access.

I walk away from cylinders with cupboards built around them which dont give enough access. I would expect at least 100 mm clear all round.

Its so easy to assemble a wider cupboard around the cylinder.

You could not fit the cylinder on the base of any cupboard, it has to go directly on the floor on account of the weight.

Tony
 
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There's nothing wrong with a Primo........ it may be an Ariston but its built in Belgium in a very modern plant and the QA is good.
 
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Like you OP I was fed tales of the Primo (corrosion around immersion boss) and decided to fit anyway for same dimension reason. Having checked, checked and checked again the boss on installation it furred up, as warned in less than 12 months. Add to this the cheap and nasty feet arrangements and casings they are best avoided.
 
D

Doctor Drivel

Like you OP I was fed tales of the Primo (corrosion around immersion boss) and decided to fit anyway for same dimension reason. Having checked, checked and checked again the boss on installation it furred up, as warned in less than 12 months. Add to this the cheap and nasty feet arrangements and casings they are best avoided.

Best fit a combi in that cupboard.
 
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The feet were the poorest part of the design and have now been changed. The latest design now incorporates grab handles too, for easier installation.

We have never had a Primo leak; and we've probably done a 3 figure number. I have had loads of problems with megaflos though :cry:
 
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The feet were the poorest part of the design and have now been changed. The latest design now incorporates grab handles too, for easier installation.

We have never had a Primo leak; and we've probably done a 3 figure number. I have had loads of problems with megaflos though :cry:

Fair enough Simond, last one I did was in '05. However whilst trying to advise the OP there appears to be an annoying parasite highlighting my text in order to disuade the OP from his original specification.
 
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Thanks for the advice so far chaps...replies as follows;

Simond/Nixt - OK Ill put a primo back on my possibles list;
Doc Drivel; - Ethos looks impressive for a combi at 25l/min but thats the 41kw model...the 36c model is way down at 16l/min. Would it be much less efficient if i only need 30kw?
Agile;- Cupboard depth is limited by the shortness of the end wall it is next to which is only 700mm long. The utility room width is 1600mm and i need 900mm of this width for the door/casing.

I currently have 3.5bar pressure but only a 15mm incoming main which gives me 20l/min at the first tap. It appears to get my money's worth out of any new kit i put in i need to upgrade it to at least 22mm...but i figure for the effort involved i may as well stick a bigger one in...28mm?...32mm?..so long as theres no downside to this?? How big should I go? Unfortunately the board's main is on the other side of the road and they have kindly quoted me £900 to upgrade their own crappy rusting little pipe....but if it gives me 30-40l/min ill begrudgingly pay it.

For info my house is 2-storey with boiler/cylinder to be located on ground floor. Distance of board's main to cylinder position is approx 20m.

Also....can anyone recommend a floor-mounted boiler to put with a cylinder as there dont seem to be many floor mounted condensing system boilers about?
 
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Have you considered a wall hung boiler ABOVE the cylinder. You could then fit an ACV Smartline cylinder which is smaller than most unventeds because it can store the water at 85C. The recovery time is also quite spectacular.

The flow issue at 20 litres is what it is. I suggest you give it a go and uprate the water main only if it proves too meagre for your requirements. Also bear in mind that an upgrade of the supply pipe does not guarantee you a better flow rate. It's likely, but not guaranteed.
 
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Thanks Simon...Smartline SLE 210 cylinder looks a clever piece of kit...cant find any prices or suppliers for it tho? Most of the pipework comes out of the top too which could help with fitting it in a shallow cupboard. Its still 1435mm tall tho so the boiler would have to be mounted at a min height of 1550mm? Would this be slightly too high?...Do building regs stipulate a maximum height for the control panel?

Steve
 
D

Doctor Drivel

Thanks for the advice so far chaps...replies as follows;

Simond/Nixt - OK Ill put a primo back on my possibles list;
Doc Drivel; - Ethos looks impressive for a combi at 25l/min but thats the 41kw model...the 36c model is way down at 16l/min. Would it be much less efficient if i only need 30kw?

Not less efficient, just a lower DHW flowrate.

I currently have 3.5bar pressure but only a 15mm incoming main which gives me 20l/min at the first tap. It appears to get my money's worth out of any new kit i put in i need to upgrade it to at least 22mm...but i figure for the effort involved i may as well stick a bigger one in...28mm?...32mm?..so long as theres no downside to this?? How big should I go? Unfortunately the board's main is on the other side of the road and they have kindly quoted me £900 to upgrade their own rubbishy rusting little pipe....but if it gives me 30-40l/min ill begrudgingly pay it.

£900? Wow!!! Best abandon the unvented cylinder tripe and go for an accumulator and a high flow combi. An Ethos combi, or equiv, will go at floor level on the wall and the cold water accumulator will go in the cupboard. Then high cold water flows @ 3.5 bar.

Best have an accumulator. Explanation:

"The flow of water to taps from a mains fed system is limited by the size of pipes and fittings that the water has to flow through. Where you have no restrictions, and large pipes, it is possible to get a large flow, even with a low pressure.

The problems start when pipes are smaller that desired, and act as a restriction. Old mains supply pipes into properties are typically 1/2 inch and even with a good pressure the water simply cannot flow through the pipe in great quantities.

To the user this is seen as a severe drop in flow rate from a tap when a second tap is opened simultaneously. There is not enough water coming in to do both, so it gets shared.

An accumulator is a simple fix. It is a water vessel containing a balloon of pressurised air. The mains water squashed the air as it fills the vessel, until the air pressure increases to match the mains supply pressure. Now, when a second tap opens up, the additional water required can be supplied from the vessel, at full mains pressure, without the restriction there is on the mains supply.

When all the water charge in the vessel has gone, the system returns to normal flow rates, so it is important to estimate the size you will need based upon how much water you may need before all taps shut and the vessel can recharge.

Installation could not get any easier, with one connection anywhere into the cold mains pipework. A non-return valve is also needed on the incoming mains to prevent the charge from disappearing back into the mains supply should the local pressure drop temporarily.

They are maintenance free and DIY installable, and with typical prices around the £200 mark, you are unlikely to find a cheaper way to improve your flow rates to taps."

http://www.heatweb.com/products/accumulators/accumulators.html

See:
http://www.rwc.co.uk/Product.aspx?page=CAT6 Go to No. 3
http://www.heatweb.com/pdf/RWC/Accumulators.pdf

It stores only cold water. They are simple, very simple and highly effective. No need for silly tanks and noisy pumps and it does hot and cold too. It can go anywhere in the house, or in the attic of a garage. All it needs is a 22mmm pipe to the hot and cold water system. It could be fitted in an insulated shed at the bottom of the garden, way out of the way - just run one underground plastic pipe to it, that is all. It is the cost of just the pump to buy.
 
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The major problem with a pressure accumulator is that it's covered by a (UK) patent and is therefore more expensive than needs be.

(IMHO, the patent should never have been granted, given similar use of similar accumulators in hydraulic systems going back to Victorian times but that's another matter.)
 
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OP - what are your hot water requirements? How many showers etc?
 
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I agree an accumulator and combi sound like a good idea. However, we find that it is difficult to fit a suitably sized accumulator and combi in a vertical plane - the combi takes up too much room with the min clearances etc to get a decent sized accumulator underneath.

The application of a potable accumulator to augment the flow of water in a hot water system is covered by a patent.

Potable accumulators are made by Flamco and a number of other manufacturers but they have all so far restricted their sale for this purpose because of the patent. Doctor D is right in saying they are available; however if you fit them for this purpose you may find yourself being the test case in the UK.

I wouldn't take that risk if I was fitting 100 a week or 1 a week. I will let Doctor Drivel do it and see what happens.

We obtain all of ours through GAH. Their unit has a diffraction diffuser to help ensure that the water is rotated in the vessel, and we get good support from them. They are WRAS approved. Ordered 12 this week!
 

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