Need an eletrcians help plz

[JohnRPerry]

Right where to start,

I'm building a gym in my back garden, i've got a log cabin something abit more robust if you understand. My propblem is making me pull my hair out,

Last year I installed a outside twin socket RCD which feed my garden tools, cutting grass mostly, worked a treat.

I now need power to the gym, so i've spur'd of the outside rcd socket with 2.5mm SWA from there ive put it into a RCD powerbreaker fused spur, and only running 4 - 5 socket, the actual run from the rcd twin socket from the house is i would say 50 meters, and the propblem is even without anything plugged in not even a light it keeps tripping both the ring main upstairs and ring main downstairs but the new circuit is spurd of the ring main down stairs but its tripping both

Why?

Am i overloading it, - but I haven't got anything on or is the cable the wrong size, should I have got 4.0mm not the 2.5.

What do you thing is the proplem,

thanks

JohnRPerry

 

[ban-all-sheds]

.
.
http://www.competentperson.co.uk
.
.
.

 

[sparkydude]

It sounds like you have either mixed up the feed and load neutrals at the RCD spur or you have got a fault on the cable with a neutral to earth fault causing the house RCD to operate. You dont mention whether your existing house has RCDS but i am assuming from your description of the two ring mains tripping out that it has. If it has rcd protection on the board then you are causing a discrimination problem by adding too many rcds of the same rated tripping current (30ma) and when one fault is detected in the sockets in the cabion it is then not just triping the spur, but all of the RCDS . The cable feeding your log cabin should have ideally been run in 4.0 and i a bit concerned about how you have just spurred off the socket existing, Is this socket already on the ring main or is this a sputr aswell, in which case you have created a spur off of a spur and this is not allowed under the regulations.
Nick

 

[comms]

Are the circuits isolating when you turn on the rcd spur? or as soon as you turn on at the cu without the rcd spur turned on?

Firstly it sounds like you have mixed the legs of both ring finals at the cu, thats why both ocpd's are tripping (thats assuming you are not on about an rcd tripping).

Secondly sounds like you have connected the rcd spur incorrectly at the socket or in a short in the spur, show some pics it's easier to help if we can see what you have done.


Third this is notifiable work, I'm sure you know that already just reminding you if not.

 

[Steve]

John, you are waaaay out of your depth. I am a DIYer, and have wired up my own shed, however, you dont have the first idea about what you're doing.

You dont need 2 RCDs protecting the same sockets.

You cant spur off a spur.

You dont know about voltage drop.

Your new cable is underptotected (2.5mm is not rated to 32A at any distance, never mind 50m)

Please call an electrician, use the link ban-all-sheds posted to find someone local to you. For your family's safety.

 

[JohnRPerry]

It sounds like you have either mixed up the feed and load neutrals at the RCD spur or you have got a fault on the cable with a neutral to earth fault causing the house RCD to operate. You dont mention whether your existing house has RCDS but i am assuming from your description of the two ring mains tripping out that it has. If it has rcd protection on the board then you are causing a discrimination problem by adding too many rcds of the same rated tripping current (30ma) and when one fault is detected in the sockets in the cabion it is then not just triping the spur, but all of the RCDS . The cable feeding your log cabin should have ideally been run in 4.0 and i a bit concerned about how you have just spurred off the socket existing, Is this socket already on the ring main or is this a sputr aswell, in which case you have created a spur off of a spur and this is not allowed under the regulations.
Nick

Ive not got the feed and the load mixed up, as ive cheekd that, Im sorry but i missed out an inportant fact I did type it up late last night, but the problem is not none of the cables being mixed up because whats been happening is, when all connected it ring main back on, my lead light from the log cabin, is working, as so the tv in the front rooom, as all the other mains is working so there anit no problem with mixing up the cables as if this was the case it'll trip streght away, but its not its triping I would say bout every 20-25mins, would this mean I havent earthed it propbery, i.e would need an earth rod???

John, you are waaaay out of your depth. I am a DIYer, and have wired up my own shed, however, you dont have the first idea about what you're doing.

You dont need 2 RCDs protecting the same sockets.

You cant spur off a spur.

You dont know about voltage drop.

Your new cable is underptotected (2.5mm is not rated to 32A at any distance, never mind 50m)

Please call an electrician, use the link ban-all-sheds posted to find someone local to you. For your family's safety.

I installed the RCD socket last year for garden tools, in which case I got myself an weather proof RCD socket for outside, correct me if im wrong but isnt this best to use. Now this time round ive desided to have a gym, consits of 1 tredmil and a multigym, and of cause lighting.

It sounds like you have either mixed up the feed and load neutrals at the RCD spur or you have got a fault on the cable with a neutral to earth fault causing the house RCD to operate. You dont mention whether your existing house has RCDS but i am assuming from your description of the two ring mains tripping out that it has. If it has rcd protection on the board then you are causing a discrimination problem by adding too many rcds of the same rated tripping current (30ma) and when one fault is detected in the sockets in the cabion it is then not just triping the spur, but all of the RCDS . The cable feeding your log cabin should have ideally been run in 4.0 and i a bit concerned about how you have just spurred off the socket existing, Is this socket already on the ring main or is this a sputr aswell, in which case you have created a spur off of a spur and this is not allowed under the regulations.
Nick

The outside socket is not part of the ring main no, but I dont want anything fancy but power for the tredmil and of cause lighting, I know its agaist regs to spur of a spur but in all account I just wanted to have power for the tredmill and power for lighting.

Are the circuits isolating when you turn on the rcd spur? or as soon as you turn on at the cu without the rcd spur turned on?

Firstly it sounds like you have mixed the legs of both ring finals at the cu, thats why both ocpd's are tripping (thats assuming you are not on about an rcd tripping).

Secondly sounds like you have connected the rcd spur incorrectly at the socket or in a short in the spur, show some pics it's easier to help if we can see what you have done.


Third this is notifiable work, I'm sure you know that already just reminding you if not.

Cant have mix no legs at the CU has I havent been inside that, and dont plan to either

 

[JohnRPerry]

best i can do for now, as its ****ing down here

Untitled

• JohnRPerry
• 26 Oct 2008
• 1

if someone can see the fault please let me know, apart from spuring of a spur i allready now that,

thanks

 

[ban-all-sheds]

if someone can see the fault please let me know, apart from spuring of a spur i allready now that,

And having 2 RCDs in series.

And not knowing about voltage drop.

And who knows what else you've done wrong because you are nowhere near competent enough to be doing this work?

Did you notify your LABC last year when you installed that socket, BTW?

Please get an electrician.

 

[JohnRPerry]

if someone can see the fault please let me know, apart from spuring of a spur i allready now that,

And having 2 RCDs in series.

And not knowing about voltage drop.

And who knows what else you've done wrong because you are nowhere near competent enough to be doing this work?

Did you notify your LABC last year when you installed that socket, BTW?

Please get an electrician.

No I didnt let my LABC know.

Would you suggest that I have garage cu in the cabin?

what would you recomend,

what mm cable to use,

ect

and only want lighting and sockets

Im more than happy to run the cable to and from the main consumer unit to the cabin as I want it done neatly, but would get an eletrcian in to connect up cause im not touching any cu

thanks for you respones btw been much helpful

 

[electronicsuk]

Would you suggest that I have garage cu in the cabin?

Why would that make any difference?

what mm cable to use

That's irrelevant, as you can't take the feed from the existing RCD socket in any case.

Im more than happy to run the cable to and from the main consumer unit to the cabin as I want it done neatly, but would get an eletrcian in to connect up cause im not touching any cu

Now you're starting to sound more sensible. This is what you should have done in the first place, but I'm not about to advise you on how to do it, as you're unlikely to find an electrician who will connect and certify your work.

Sorry to be blunt, John, but you've shot yourself in the foot here. It's clear you don't have the competence to carry out this work, otherwise you probably wouldn't be here asking these questions you have in the first place. I do appreciate this is a DIY forum, and that's great, as we're all here to help.

However, you need to help yourself and undo all the work you have done, notify local building control of your intentions, and then come back here for advice when you're ready. Otherwise, who is going to inspect your work, and who is going to be held liable when you make a mistake trying to follow the advice given here?

 

[JohnRPerry]

Would you suggest that I have garage cu in the cabin?

Why would that make any difference?

what mm cable to use

That's irrelevant, as you can't take the feed from the existing RCD socket in any case.

Im more than happy to run the cable to and from the main consumer unit to the cabin as I want it done neatly, but would get an eletrcian in to connect up cause im not touching any cu

Now you're starting to sound more sensible. This is what you should have done in the first place, but I'm not about to advise you on how to do it, as you're unlikely to find an electrician who will connect and certify your work.

Sorry to be blunt, John, but you've shot yourself in the foot here. It's clear you don't have the competence to carry out this work, otherwise you probably wouldn't be here asking these questions you have in the first place. I do appreciate this is a DIY forum, and that's great, as we're all here to help.

However, you need to help yourself and undo all the work you have done, notify local building control of your intentions, and then come back here for advice when you're ready. Otherwise, who is going to inspect your work, and who is going to be held liable when you make a mistake trying to follow the advice given here?

I wasnt suggesting runing a thicker cable from the RCD spur I ment running a new cable from the house cu to the garage cu if thats whats best to do. bt leave the rest for the eletrcians, but as I said befor, Id rather run the cable and do the digging.

Given as I live in london, how much would I expect to pay for a eletrcial company to install a cu inside the cabin?

 

[electronicsuk]

I wasnt suggesting runing a thicker cable from the RCD spur I ment running a new cable from the house cu to the garage cu if thats whats best to do. bt leave the rest for the eletrcians, but as I said befor, Id rather run the cable and do the digging.

Yes, I understand that's what you were asking for. You should just about be able to get away with 4mm over that distance and have a 20A circuit, although I would suggest running in at least 6mm. It isn't a lot more expense and will be a lot less hassle than digging everything up in the future, should your use of the cabin change.

In any case, you will want to employ the services of an electrician first and go on his recommendation as to what size cable to run. He'll probably be more than happy for you to dig the trench and bury the cable. Note here that it should be at least 600mm deep, and bottom of the trench should be free of sharp objects and bedded with sand with the cable laid atop. You should then run "danger - buried cable" warning tape above (but obviously below ground level) the cable, so that anyone digging there will hit the tape before the cable!

Given as I live in london, how much would I expect to pay for a eletrcial company to install a cu inside the cabin?

Sorry, no idea.

 

[comms]

Assuming there isnt any rcd on the cu.
Change the rcd socket to the rcd spur then run swa to the new gym.
Bin the rcd socket you dont want 2 rcd in series, as has already been pointed out.

The circuits indoors that are tripping, is it an rcd thats going or mcb?

If I was doing it I'd run a dedicated 6mm / 10mm submain from the house cu not exporting the pme (if thats what you have) & install a insulated small cu utilising rcbo's & TT the gym end.
As for cost havent got a scooby but the last one I did over that sort of distance set them back in the region of £1.3K, but that was for conduit inside not just T/E.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If I was doing it I'd run a dedicated 6mm / 10mm submain from the house cu not exporting the pme (if thats what you have) & install a insulated small cu utilising rcbo's & TT the gym end.

And FWIW my preference would be to split the tails and go through a switchfuse to 10mm² minimum to the gym. I wouldn't discard a perfectly good TN- supply earth in favour of TT unless there were extraneous-conductive-parts complications in the gym building.

 

[JohnRPerry]

just like to thank you all for helping me to point this situation in the right direction.

I phone up an eletcial company explain what I have done, with them also telling me to contact building regs ect.

They told me over the fone that because ive run more than 60ft of cable im gonna lose some earth does this sound right?, which is causing the RCD to trip!

Ive gone out today to buy and earth rod and clamp, and used what he told me over the phone, 6mm earth, Ive now done that, and there hasnt been 1 trip.

But in the furture, if we decide to move Ive have it set up propbly either into other room or out building!

Does that make sence to any1, in the fact that ive run the 2.5mm 60ft or more i'd lose earth?



thanks

and ive took your info on board for the next time