EICR 'fail'

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So today I attended one of my rental flats EICR, bit of a funny feeling for me as I haven't been in this property for maybe 5 years and there have been several tenant changes. I replaced the CU maybe 10 years ago.

I didn't think there were any issues however the plastic CU [I thought I remembered it as being metal] is behind the front door which is the only access route and one of the tenants has changed the 8KW shower to 9.6KW and it's MCB from 32A to 40A sadly it's 4mm cable.

Inspector [one of my many bosses] was rather surprised when I said to abort the inspection until those 2 points are resolved.
 
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The shower is a fail and chargeable to tenants, but the plastic consumer unit is not really a fail, however your point is a good one, in that landlords should look after their tenants well fair and do the jobs required even if not forced to do the jobs.

We can all argue that BS 7671 does not say you must upgrade which is correct, but specially for the RCD protection we may not have to fit it, but we would in our own house so why not in tenants home. I am even changing some type AC to type A in my own house, so why not with tenants house.
 
The shower is a fail and chargeable to tenants, but the plastic consumer unit is not really a fail, however your point is a good one, in that landlords should look after their tenants well fair and do the jobs required even if not forced to do the jobs.

We can all argue that BS 7671 does not say you must upgrade which is correct, but specially for the RCD protection we may not have to fit it, but we would in our own house so why not in tenants home. I am even changing some type AC to type A in my own house, so why not with tenants house.
Sadly I have no idea who made the shower changes and looking at the way the chalk has built up I massively doubt it's the current tenants of 18-24 months so I'll take the hit., it will only be 15m of 6mm² T&E within MT2 so it's not a big issue.
Being the only exit route the issue of plastic/metal is a moot point IMO and I'm not interested is having to make excuses in the future.The current CU has RCD main switch and this may be the case with the replacement, or all RCBO's, due to very limited space available at CU location.
 
Being the only exit route the issue of plastic/metal is a moot point IMO
Not quite sure what you mean by that.

and I'm not interested is having to make excuses in the future.
It's not a question of making excuses.

The new regulation - solely because of the London Fire Brigade - was considered dubious enough, because it did not address the actual issue of catching fire because of loose connections, when it was introduced and insulated CUs were considered preferable.

Then someone at NICEIC and/or NAPIT decides that being in understairs cupboards is a hazard and should be avoided because the stairs might catch fire - when it has been acceptable 'for ever'.
Now you are deciding that a plastic CU in the passage is also undesirable. Why did you not think this before?

Perhaps you should move the CU to somewhere considered the 'safest' - in in a bedroom as far from the door and window as possible?
 
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Not quite sure what you mean by that.
I mean there is a perceived risk and a perceived solution which has made its way through H&S and regs. This is one of the areas where I am extremely happy to spend a little bit of time and money to make the change.


It's not a question of making excuses.The new regulation - solely because of the London Fire Brigade - was considered dubious enough, because it did not address the actual issue of catching fire because of loose connections, when it was introduced and insulated CUs were considered preferable.

If something were to go wrong, such as a fire, which has not happened AFAIA in any of the 12 flats in the complex since built in mid 60's. I don't want to be the person standing in the dock trying to defend not spending £200. I also prepare my properties to a standard I'd be happy to live in and having had a fire exit route issue highlighted I wish to mitigate this for the comfort and safety of my tenants.
Then someone at NICEIC and/or NAPIT decides that being in understairs cupboards is a hazard and should be avoided because the stairs might catch fire - when it has been acceptable 'for ever'.
In the olden days the CU was not considered a fire risk but then again seat belts were introduced and as much as I've always disliked them the safety record has improved with them and I'd not think of not using them. I see that as a comparible situation, albeit a totally incomparable genre.
Now you are deciding that a plastic CU in the passage is also undesirable. Why did you not think this before?

Perhaps you should move the CU to somewhere considered the 'safest' - in in a bedroom as far from the door and window as possible?
Location will be difficult to change without major unheaval but having said that in another of my flats the CU is in the bedroom on the rear wall of the property [meter box on the rear wall], actually as far as possible to get from the from door, the irony there is the agent and KFB have both advised it would be better by the front door [only access route other than DG windows] for emergency access.

EDIT; to correct quote errors
 
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I agree with @SUNRAY I would not want to be defending a test case. I do see an all RCBO unit is shorter, I have one my self, but I got caught out at wholesalers, I looked at the RCBO boxes all marked up type B and thought only really wanted type A that was better then expected, son fitted it all for me, then looked as icon
18th_RCD_TypeAC.jpg
ups, it was type AC not even type A. So decided just to swap the ones on main house rings, been waiting 7 weeks now, so not so sure on all RCBO any longer, my fault should have checked.

I see your point about added safety of having the consumer unit by the door, so easy to isolate all as leaving in the case of a fire, the kitchen in my mothers house had its own mini CU right by the door and I always felt that was the right place so all can be turned off as exiting in the case of a fire. The people who did the kitchen put the hob isolator behind the hob, so with a fire on the hob there was no access to isolator, but was not really worried about it as RCBO's right at the door.

The main CU was under the stairs, it had been there since 1954, and even if moved the DNO head would remain, and since DNO stuff plastic there was really no point having a metal CU, it was changed to metal during the rewire, but not due to fire risk. The glory hole as it was always called was always full of junk, the CU being made of metal was to stop damage from other things shoved under the stairs.

The gas meter was placed on the porch, seemed a really odd place, but it was an after thought, did not have gas at first. But it was at the entrance and must be far more dangerous than the electric meter. House sold now so not my worry.

This house the electric meter and CU are in the flat under the house, real pain if anything trips having to get dressed to reset, the oil boiler does trip also in the flat, yes linked smoke alarms, but only linked to rest of flat, so we may not hear in in house above.

But if we consider fire risk assessment, where do you put an electric car on charge in an integral garage? If we compare the risk after seeing the fire with Richard Hammond, I would say plastic CU is well down on the list. Personally I would not park an electric car on charge inside the house, but it is permitted, and it makes one ask why bother about the rest of the fire precautions.
 
The board changes and EICRs have now been done.
4mm² shower cable replaced, quite easy as mostly in minitrunking and gas bonding was 6mm².
Other flat main earth and gas bond was 4mm² but very thick insulation so looked muuch bigger. immersion DP switch had overheated.

All done, repairs made - only £350 all in.
 
It would be nice if all landlords acted in that way, I think most do really, I do not see highlighting a need for upgrade as a problem, but I do see time limit as a problem, specially in current situation, I have a leaking roof, in normal times it would just be done, but lack of materials and problems with access when isolating when wife having cancer treatment so builders can't walk through the house have resulted in this being done with temporary repairs and a delay, the law should have been delayed until Covid19 problems have gone, I am not permitted to visit my other house, so how could I every correct problems, and the electrics are in a state, and my son who is technical a tenant is fixing them for me, he is actually living rent free at the moment and he is buying the materials to fix things except for the boiler which I paid for, but it is an amicable arrangement for all parties, he will sell his house and buy ours in fullness of time. But only legal because he is family.
 
The annoying thing with this Rental EICR means it's difficult finding people to do an [proper] inspection and to buy the parts.
In my case the inspector is not a problem as I freelance for a number of panel building/controls/electrical companies and have done a lot of inspection work for them despite not being qualified. However I refuse to do my own to avoid any conflict of interest, I'm surprised the undersized 4mm² earth wires went unnoticed by me despite moving one of the clamps a little while ago [due to gas tee being added] but measuring it now with calipers it's 5.6mm diameter. As a comparison the removed 4mm² T&E is 4.2mm, new 6mm² T&E offcut is 5.1mm, and 10mm earth is 6.1mm.
Parts required, being little one bed flats one has 4 circuits, the other has 5 so 3+3 split board. I know thet're not everbodies taste but smaller BG boards have got hard to come by and out of the list of suppliers I use, Screwfix were the first to get stock in this round of deliveries, in fact none of the others have got back to me. I suspect BG are having some difficulty keeping up with demand as the Neutral bars in the 2 similar boards are different sizes, and different to previous purchases, and now they are supplying a clip on insulating strip for the busbars rather than the grey plastic extrusion I'm used to.
 
In my case the inspector is not a problem as I freelance for a number of panel building/ controls/ electrical companies and have done a lot of inspection work for them despite not being qualified. However I refuse to do my own to avoid any conflict of interest ...
That's an interesting one. I see nothing in the new legislation (or the associated guidance document) which prevents a landlord who 'happens to be' an adequately 'competent' electrician/'electrician' from undertaking an EICR on their own rental property.
... I'm surprised the undersized 4mm² earth wires went unnoticed by me despite moving one of the clamps a little while ago [due to gas tee being added] but measuring it now with calipers it's 5.6mm diameter. As a comparison the removed 4mm² T&E is 4.2mm, new 6mm² T&E offcut is 5.1mm, and 10mm earth is 6.1mm.
I'm a bit confused by those figures. I presume that you are talking about the overall diameter (including insulation) - but was the 4mm² cable 5.6 or 4.2 mm in diameter, and what is the 5.1 mm measurement you mention for 6mm² T+E? Whatever, it sounds s if you were looking at a 4mm² conductor with unusually thick insulation, so I would not think you should beat yourself up too much for not having noticed!!

Kind Regards, John
 
That's an interesting one. I see nothing in the new legislation (or the associated guidance document) which prevents a landlord who 'happens to be' an adequately 'competent' electrician/'electrician' from undertaking an EICR on their own rental property.
I'm a bit confused by those figures. I presume that you are talking about the overall diameter (including insulation) - but was the 4mm² cable 5.6 or 4.2 mm in diameter, and what is the 5.1 mm measurement you mention for 6mm² T+E? Whatever, it sounds s if you were looking at a 4mm² conductor with unusually thick insulation, so I would not think you should beat yourself up too much for not having noticed!!

Kind Regards, John

No I have no thoughts that doing your own is not permitted, however I've done a lot of testing for the electrician I used but I'm not prepared to have any loopholes in my procedures or paperwork, for a start it's unlikely I would have noticed the undersize earth.

Reading it back it's not too clear, measuring over the insulation with calipers :
A core of the removed 4mm² T&E is 4.2mm,
A core of the new 6mm² T&E is 5.1mm,
The new 10mm green/yellow single is 6.1mm.

The old removed 4mm² green/yellow single is 5.6mm diameter so exactly half way between 6 & 10mm².

Someone has suggested it may be an imperial cable, a strand of the copper is 0.855mm or 0.0335" [according to my cheap electronic caliper] so it could be just about be 7/0.036. However I've had reason to look at the lease today and it started in 1983 so I'd think it's unlikely old stock was still around then.
 
No I have no thoughts that doing your own is not permitted ...
I was just interested in the fact that the legislation would seem to allow it. Is an MOT tester allowed to test his/her own vehicle?
Reading it back it's not too clear, measuring over the insulation with calipers : A core of the removed 4mm² T&E is 4.2mm, A core of the new 6mm² T&E is 5.1mm, The new 10mm green/yellow single is 6.1mm. ... The old removed 4mm² green/yellow single is 5.6mm diameter so exactly half way between 6 & 10mm².
Thanks for clarifying. The old one does sound rather odd/unusual. It isn't, perhaps, 'insulated and sleeved' is it (although I can't for the life of me think why they would make such a G/Y single!)?

Kind Regards, John
 
I was just interested in the fact that the legislation would seem to allow it. Is an MOT tester allowed to test his/her own vehicle?
As you say, nothing to stop it. I think the OP is thinking that if anything were to happen, then someone might suggest he didn't do the job properly because he had a personal vested interest in passing it. Personally I'm happy to take that risk, and should anything happen then I'd be "let me refer to my notes, otherwise known as the EICR certificate - yes I tested that X, and at the time it tested as <whatever figures>". And here's my daily calibration log for the MFT showing that it hadn't drifted either before or after being used for these tests.

As Ericmark says, I think most landlords do "do the right thing". Unfortunately, as long as there are those who don't and agents that support them, then we'll be stuck with all the legislation. It will be interesting to see when No2 daughter's landlord decides to get one done, and even more interesting to see how many things it fails on - if it doesn't fail, then someone will be getting thrown out of their scam membership.
 
As said in the other thread, EICRs are nothing to do with scam membership.


I don't think special training for the PRS testing has been legislated, has it?
 
Correct, the legislation doesn't require scam membership for EICRs, but agents (at least mine did) telling landlords that the electrician does need to be registered. Interestingly I came across this earlier today while looking up something else :

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.o...on-registered-electrician-to-rewire-my-house/
"Although they could rewire your house, an unregistered electrician is unable to self-certify their work and therefore won't be able to supply you with a Building Regulations (Part P) compliance certificate, which is required by law for all notifiable work"
An example of the sort of thing I've been accusing the scam industry of saying. It's carefully worded so that it isn't actually am outright lie, but it gives a very inaccurate (or at least, incomplete) picture and is clearly intended to persuade the general public that only registered electricians are able to do electrical work. Actually, I would say that it would class a a lie - by omission. I CBA to pursue it, but it's probably illegal under UK fraud law which (from memory) explicitly includes "omissions" as a source of dishonesty.
 

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