BS 7671 and the novice
- Thread starter uberfreak
- Start date
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I'd question the ability of a DIY novice to read and fully understand the Regs. Plus, they'd need a good understanding of the building regs as described in the "Electrician's Guide To The Building Regulations". If they could, then "yes" it may be possible. However, they'd still fall short on inspection, testing, as specified in IEE "Guidance Note 3",and LABC notification. Why bother, just get a Competent person to do it.
You may save yourself a few quid, but you'll end up with an un-tested, un-certified installation that is potentially dangerous and, as far as a HIP goes, unsaleable.
You may save yourself a few quid, but you'll end up with an un-tested, un-certified installation that is potentially dangerous and, as far as a HIP goes, unsaleable.
I agree - you could be unqualified and a DIYer and do a perfectly good job (apart from complying with Chapters 61 & 63, without a significant investment in test equipment), but novice would be the killer.
You couldn't do it unless you already knew and understood the regulations at least well enough to know where to find every one which applied to every aspect of the rewire and to understand them when you found them. And you'd have to know all that before you even started the design.
But rocket science it isn't - 'O' level/GCSE physics and maths is as hard as the non-practical stuff gets.
You couldn't do it unless you already knew and understood the regulations at least well enough to know where to find every one which applied to every aspect of the rewire and to understand them when you found them. And you'd have to know all that before you even started the design.
But rocket science it isn't - 'O' level/GCSE physics and maths is as hard as the non-practical stuff gets.
This is hypothetical (kind of) and is a question more about the regulations ability to produce safe and adequate installations than the ability of the installer.
So if i understand, so far it's a thumbs up for the regulations?
So if i understand, so far it's a thumbs up for the regulations?
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I must say I'm getting concerned by your questioning.
I may be reading too much in to your questions but it does seem that you're trying to justify DIY so long as you conform to the regs.
The regs are a 400 page technical document that cover, or refer to, all aspects of electrical installation. You also have to comply with all releveant building regulations. I'm sure you're aware of, not just Part P, but also Part A, B, C, E F, L, M?
Please be careful. The fact that the law allows you to play with electricity doesn't mean it's safe for you to do so.
I may be reading too much in to your questions but it does seem that you're trying to justify DIY so long as you conform to the regs.
The regs are a 400 page technical document that cover, or refer to, all aspects of electrical installation. You also have to comply with all releveant building regulations. I'm sure you're aware of, not just Part P, but also Part A, B, C, E F, L, M?
Please be careful. The fact that the law allows you to play with electricity doesn't mean it's safe for you to do so.
S
sjwkmje
I agree you could be unqualified and a DIYer and do a perfectly good job (apart from complying with Chapters 61 and 63).
But do you have any pratical experience? The regs are not just the starting point. You need to have a good grasp on the pratical aspects as well as building regulations. Example the space between drilling holes in joists is not covered in BS 7671:2008 but covered in the building regulations. You should also read the electricians guide to the building regulations.
Just knowing the regs will not be enough. I can tell by your previous posts that you don't have a grasp on the building regulations.
Example:
1.) Do you know how to test and inspect the work you have done and have the correct and calibarted test equipment and have the ability to interpret the results? There are dead tests to be done before the circuit / circuits is /are energised. You could leave your self with a potentially dangerous installation if no testing and inspection is carried out. How would you go about issuing a certificate to comply with part p?
2.) Do you know how to correctly terminate 2.5mm t+e. The reason I ask this is many DIY people do not fold back the coppper to increase the surface area so it grips correctly when tightened into an accessory. Some accessorys do not require this but MK and Crabtree do as they are designed to take 3 cables not just a ring final. Same when connecting into MCBs.
So what work have you done?
Adam
Part P doesn't require certificates to be issued.
S
sjwkmje
Right I think I am going to go read all the part p information again as this LABC thinks one should be issued for any work, that an MWC, or a PIR. I cannot argue with the building control officer even though I have tried. This is why I don't get involved with them any more and just work with another spark who is a compitent person while I am working on becoming a compitent person myself. Even before part p I still issued certs to any work I did.
1) Ask him to show you where, in the actual law, i.e. The Building Regulations themselves, it states that a certificate is required.
With any luck he'll walk right into the trap of mentioning Approved Document P, which isn't the law, but which you do want to use as well (which is why it would be so sweet if he brought it into play himself).
2) Ask him why Approved Document P contains guidance on what should be done when the installer isn't qualified to issue a BS 7671 certificate, and therefore there isn't one - you'll find it on p11:
c. Where installers are not qualified to
complete BS 7671 completion certificates
1.24 Where such installers (who may be
contractors or DIYers) carry out notifiable electrical
work, the building control body must be notified
before the work starts. Where the work is
necessary because of an emergency the building
control body should be notified as soon as possible.
The building control body then becomes
responsible for making sure that the work is safe
and complies with all relevant requirements in
the Building Regulations.
With any luck he'll walk right into the trap of mentioning Approved Document P, which isn't the law, but which you do want to use as well (which is why it would be so sweet if he brought it into play himself).
2) Ask him why Approved Document P contains guidance on what should be done when the installer isn't qualified to issue a BS 7671 certificate, and therefore there isn't one - you'll find it on p11:
c. Where installers are not qualified to
complete BS 7671 completion certificates
1.24 Where such installers (who may be
contractors or DIYers) carry out notifiable electrical
work, the building control body must be notified
before the work starts. Where the work is
necessary because of an emergency the building
control body should be notified as soon as possible.
The building control body then becomes
responsible for making sure that the work is safe
and complies with all relevant requirements in
the Building Regulations.
The question is hypothetical, if i was to do any work I would have the design and installation looked at and testing done by a qualified person with experience, i do intend to do the city & guilds in september but until then i would not be confident to do anything other than a simple spur without the direction of an electrician.
As i am currently studying the regs the question was to see if people do have faith in the regulation to produce work of a good standard if followed, even if the person following the regulations os not competent?
If you do not feel the regulations if followed by a unqualified person will result in a safe installation then the regulations need to be changed or the law needs to be changed making it illegal for unqualified people to work on domestic electrical installation of any kind?
As i am currently studying the regs the question was to see if people do have faith in the regulation to produce work of a good standard if followed, even if the person following the regulations os not competent?
If you do not feel the regulations if followed by a unqualified person will result in a safe installation then the regulations need to be changed or the law needs to be changed making it illegal for unqualified people to work on domestic electrical installation of any kind?
you have set the experience/expertise bar very low there.
Sure it is possible it is just unlikely. There is the aspect of testing that will probably trip up a novice. The simplest way to complete the testing is with a lot of rather expensive test equipment : not exactly likely for a DIY novice to own or have access to such.
much more likely to produce a safe system than one that fully complies with the regulations.
Safe however isn't enough. It also has to be obvious to the next person who works on the system how it is connected.
Even under the old rules (15th? ed and earlier) I would have to argue that an "unqualified DIY novice" should not be considered as "competent" to manage a full rewire of an old building with installation of all the modern electrical conveniences.
Thats bad practice isn't it?, its not beyond possibily that the only bit properly clamped could be the bent over bit (when you've got two conductors you can check each one by checking it doesn't pull out), and if the copper fractures at the bent over bit (much tighter than allowed radius), you've got a high resistance joint
You are unlikely to get a high resistance joint if the copper fractures at the bend as both pieces should still be firmly clamped under the screw terminal. More likely to get a high resistance if using a single conductor and the screw only clamps on half the conductor or you nick the conductor when stripping the insulation.
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